SMILE Undo?

[zephyrtronium]

Basically, the question is this: If SMILE had an undo feature, but it was only for tiles and would only undo one tile at a time, would you prefer it over no undo functionality whatsoever?[spoiler=relevance from #jzd (not especially long)]

«16:45:54»   <DMantra|Hacking>   ever try and drag an enemy somewhere, but you didnt exactly drag onto it, so you just ended up erasing parts of your room?
«16:45:57»   <Bloodsonic>   okay I am gonna fine this bloodsonic guy $200
«16:46:20»   <Jathys>   GF: are you ready to hand in your assignment?
«16:46:49»   <Jathys>   DMantra: all the fraking time... I wish SMILE had an undo button or something
«16:47:20»   <DMantra|Hacking>   its most common with the smaller, oddly shaped enemies
«16:47:22»   <uNsane>   well
«16:47:32»   <uNsane>   if you want a simple undo
«16:47:44»   <uNsane>   you could have a list that is empty at start
«16:48:05»   <uNsane>   then each tile you change has its data added before it is changed
«16:48:16»   <DMantra|Hacking>   well theres an idea Jathys
«16:48:23»   <uNsane>   and ctrl+z writes a pop of the last item
«16:49:59»   <Jathys>   unsane: first, I was joking... 2nd, imagine the act of pasting the tiles from the clipboard.... that's up to 256 tiles changed... and each one is changed one at a time, just really quickly
«16:50:11»   <Jathys>   third: tiles are not the only things that get changed
«16:50:21»   <Jathys>   fourth: ur mom
«16:50:31»   <uNsane>   thats why i said "simple undo"
«16:50:38»   * DMantra|Hacking   loves the way Jathys lists things
«16:51:25»   <uNsane>   youd just have to suck it up if you change 80 tiles at once and realized you shouldnt have
«16:51:34»   <uNsane>   either do it over or ctrl+z 80 times
«16:52:07»   <uNsane>   and if you change something else, too bad
«16:52:39»   <Jathys>   unsane: you think people would *accept* the fact that they have to click undo 8 times to undo the pasting of a door? you think they'd *accept* having to undo 50 times for making a single sweep of the mouse?
«16:53:03»   <Aile>   Guys, type alt+F4 it's awesome
«16:53:16»   <Zhs2>   alt+F4
«16:53:20»   * Jathys   would rather make SADOS than allow smile to undo hacking
«16:53:20»   <uNsane>   you think people wouldnt get over the limitations of this undo method?

[/spoiler]

[RealRed]

yes.

[Zhs2]

I personally believe that this topic is pointless. Much like our forum, the control Jathys has over his own personal creation is strictly totalitarian. If he's not going to do it, what's the point in bothering Jathys about it?

I will leave this unlocked, though. No harm in trying. :grin:

[zephyrtronium]

I'm not necessarily trying to tell Jathys to implement this undo method, especially since I don't use SMILE; rather, I am trying to show that people may prefer a heavily limited undo over nothing, mainly in response to

«16:52:39»   <Jathys>   unsane: you think people would *accept* the fact that they have to click undo 8 times to undo the pasting of a door? you think they'd *accept* having to undo 50 times for making a single sweep of the mouse?

[Jathys]

Since my response thread has been deemed pointless and locked (though, strangely this thread has also been deemed pointless and not locked), I'll post here instead.  Instead of using a humorous slant to get my point across, let me be blunt (as my obvious sarcasm on #jzd apparently wasn't recognized as sarcasm):

<Jathys>   unsane: you think people would *accept* the fact that they have to click undo 8 times to undo the pasting of a door? you think they'd *accept* having to undo 50 times for making a single sweep of the mouse?

To put this in perspective, imagine the following:
-you have 12 tiles saved to the clipboard
-you place these tiles into the room by clicking your mouse ONE TIME
-oops... need to undo this... now you have to undo TWELVE TIMES to undo what was done with a single click of the mouse

If you had the clipboard filled when you clicked the mouse, you would have to undo 256 times for that one click.  SMILE does not consider the clipboard to be a single action, but rather many actions done one after another.  I know it doesn't have to be that way... I could spend the next several months recoding SMILE's engine to make it more suitable to unhack with, but I'd likely have to cancel other projects to do so.

[zephyrtronium]

And the above is exactly why I've been taking care to specify that it

would only undo one tile at a time

[Zhs2]

Another reason I didn't lock this topic was because I knew you'd most likely have a response and two topics for it (even if one of them did indeed prove a point) is one too many. :<_<:

Also, you've proposed that the feature is indeed possible in the way that you could undo tile by tile... I'm not seeing the problem in doing it that way. I know you're a busy man, what with a life and all, but it would be appreciated if you continued to humor me a bit longer... Would it be too large an effort to implement it that way? As an alternative, would it involve having your e-mail inbox flooded with complaints if it was put in? :icon_neutral:

Thanks in advance.

[Jathys]

As an alternative, would it involve having your e-mail inbox flooded with complaints if it was put in? :icon_neutral:

This week, I have received 8 e-mails about SMILE.  One of them asks if I can get rid of the "advertising banner" that tells people to "CLICK", as I shouldn't spam people in such a way... The e-mail then goes on to ask how to open a room in SMILE :icon_rolleyes: (For those of you who don't use the program, the flashing box that says "CLICK" is what they need to click on to open a room).  Also received two e-mails from the same person telling me that I need to make a make-my-hack button.  Another e-mail from someone *telling* me to make an undo button or they'll use DH instead (does DH have an undo?).  One e-mail asks me to make it so levels from MF and ZM can be directly imported into SMILE.  Another complains that it's too far between releases and I need to update beyond version 1.32.  The two last e-mails say that SMILE needs to edit savestates from zsnes.

The stuff above is actually quite humorous if it isn't in your inbox.  In any case, any feature that goes in that isn't 100% "perfect" will generate e-mail.

[DSO]

In any case, any feature that goes in that isn't 100% "perfect" will generate e-mail.

Personally, I think the flashing "click" box is perfect, but you get e-mail about that...

If you had the clipboard filled when you clicked the mouse, you would have to undo 256 times for that one click.  SMILE does not consider the clipboard to be a single action, but rather many actions done one after another.

Couldn't SMILE record I had 10x10 tiles selected last time I clicked, and then I click again and place 9 tiles from a 3x3 and then when called for, automatically undo 9, then when I undo again 100 actions?

[Jathys]

Couldn't SMILE record I had 10x10 tiles selected last time I clicked, and then I click again and place 9 tiles from a 3x3 and then when called for, automatically undo 9, then when I undo again 100 actions?

When you place a single tile, there are $100 actions done.  Just because you can't SEE a tile in the clipboard doesn't mean it's not there.  The other $FF actions my be "do nothing", but they still exist.  The way the clipboard's code is written, it would need to keep track of:
1) How many tiles were enabled and *which* tiles were enabled (as you can enable/disable pieces of the clipboard.
2) How many tiles were visible and *which*
3) What were the flip settings on the last pasting (as this may have changed, thus making the undo get put on backwards)
4) Has the room changed?  Graphic sheet?  Tile type?
5) Has the clipboard itself changed or had pieces changed?

(The above is a list it took me 10 seconds to come up with... certainly while recoding half of SMILE's engine and screwing up other things along the way, I would come up with more)

Food for thought:

• Total number of SNES/NES/Gameboy game editors with an Undo? Zero... Please, correct me if I'm wrong on this.
• We live in a world where emulators undo your mistakes, search engines tell you what you were really looking for, and hackers are more concerned about undoing things than doing new things.
• I just got another e-mail to add to the fire. Being asked to add ASM support to SMILE... Again.

[devonodev]

An undo feature would be really useful.
Hmmm...  How about a button that takes you back to what the room was like 5 seconds before, and SMILE remembers up to 30 seconds or something.
Sort of like a rewind, but different.

But I'm sure if Jathys wanted to do it, he would have by now.

[Jathys]

and SMILE remembers up to 30 seconds or something.
Sort of like a rewind, but different.

Because if someone screwed up, didn't notice that they screwed up, then went to the bathroom... "Oh, I screwed up," they say upon returning to their computer, unable to use the undo feature anyway and confused as to why they can't undo their most recent change . . . If I create an Undo feature that is drastically different from what people are used to (say, an undo feature you find in a paint program or in wordpad), people will hound me non-stop to change it.

[spoiler]Just received my very first e-mail thanking me for deciding to create an undo in smile, but stating that it shouldn't be so limited.[/spoiler]

[Fizzer]

How about an undo feature, with an "automatically undo X times" option, so to remove an entire clidboard you just used, you enter "256" or "100" (to confuse noobs ^_^) for the auto-undo?

[Jathys]

How about an undo feature, with an "automatically undo X times" option, so to remove an entire clidboard you just used, you enter "256" or "100" (to confuse noobs ^_^) for the auto-undo?

Because you asked (and because DMantra likes it when I list things):

• Because there aren't always that many changes done, though that many *actions* are done.
• Because I tested this method of adding an undo 5 YEARS ago and it wasn't going to work without a rewrite of SMILE then either.
• Because if you paste the clipboard while dragging the mouse 8 tiles (for example) 2,048 changes may have been done, though there could be more than 32,768 actions done in that time.

No matter how many times people recommend the same thing, and as totalitarian as I am, the fact remains that I know my own coding better than anyone else possibly could.  I have a better idea of what will be compatible with the way SMILE has been coded and what will require a complete overhaul of the engine . . . If I had to do over again, I *would* code things dramatically different, as when I started SMILE I had no idea how to code an editor for a game with so many different parts.  Still though, I have no urge whatsoever to do so.  None.  I guarantee you that no one has the ability to make me want to rewrite SMILE's inner workings unless they meet the following criteria:
1) They've coded their own level editor
2) They created an Undo feature for that level editor
3) They are going to do 90% of the grunt work rewriting the engine
4) They have only one thumb

[spoiler]I put in #4 to avoid getting e-mails from people who haven't done #1 or #2 (don't in fact even know how to program), but want me to send them the source code anyway... I will demand a picture *showing* that you only have one thumb.[/spoiler]

[Zhs2]

Damn, I shoulda locked this yesterday. Like I said before (and Jathys many times after both here and IRC,) it's really Jathys' decision and Jathys' only; begging and e-mails and topics aren't very effective. Hope you got your answers, because topics like these will be grounds for waves upon waves of angry mods and editor makers upon thee a lock and a warn from now on.

Without further ado... *KACHUNK*