Metroid: The Blue Plague

[Zincoshine]

But, it's still a very good hack viewed as a whole.

That's exactly why I bothered to post in this thread. I rarely make suggestions like this on the forums. If I do, it's because I care about the mod and want it to succeed.

[Noxus]

But, it's still a very good hack viewed as a whole.

That's exactly why I bothered to post in this thread. I rarely make suggestions like this on the forums. If I do, it's because I care about the mod and want it to succeed.

Adjusting the freeze time won't make the hack more successful, it's already succeeded. I think you're judging these hacks by what you think it ought to be, instead of what it is. Some hacks are difficult. Hacks don't have to fall under the category of "metroidvania", or whatever. They can be challenge hacks, exploration, puzzle, one room, spoof, you name it.

If what bothers you is not being able to get up there, there's cheat codes that can be used. You're pretty close to the end anyways, this isn't a very large hack. I'd personally come back to it some other time. Lots of hacks out there to try.

[drb]

When even veteran speedrunners are ready to throw their controller at the screen, it is clear that something is very wrong.

The fact that someone's an SM expert doesn't mean they're immediately going to fly through every hack they pick up.  People become veteran speedrunners through hundreds of hours of practice with *specific situations*.  Put them in a new game and they have to find a way to apply their skills, adapt, and overcome through practice - same as anyone else.  That's the beauty of ROM hacking: hacks challenge people to think outside the box or apply what they've learned from the parent game in new ways.  I can all but guarantee that most of those veterans would be breezing through that section if you could watch their subsequent playthroughs.

I care about the mod and want it to succeed.

We're talking about a four-star hack that won the contest it was created for, as well as best quickplay for the year it was released.  What more does it need to do to succeed?

You need to undo the ice beam nerf, your hack is currently unplayable because that nerf makes a mandatory progression pathway (the so called "ripper climb" to the super missiles) impossible to traverse. Let me know when you've updated the IPS file so I may complete this mod and give it a better score.

That's exactly why I bothered to post in this thread. I rarely make suggestions like this on the forums.

For the record, "You need to..." and "let me know when you've updated" isn't a suggestion - it's a demand.

[Noxus]

So, here's the thing. I value Zinco's insight and agree with most of his viewpoints. I really do! But some of these things, I remember 10 yrs ago just discovering this whole hacking scene. I thought I'd never be able to do any of this. But after trying, over and over again, I found these "glitches" to be actually kind of easy to do once I got the hang of it. Mid air morph used to be tricky for me, but now it comes as second nature. It's just something you do. So, be like Nike and, just do it  :yay: You'll see one day you'll be mastering all this stuff in no time!

[Zincoshine]

So, here's the thing. I value Zinco's insight and agree with most of his viewpoints. I really do! But some of these things, I remember 10 yrs ago just discovering this whole hacking scene. I thought I'd never be able to do any of this. But after trying, over and over again, I found these "glitches" to be actually kind of easy to do once I got the hang of it. Mid air morph used to be tricky for me, but now it comes as second nature. It's just something you do. So, be like Nike and, just do it  :yay: You'll see one day you'll be mastering all this stuff in no time!

This isn't about me though. This is about metroidvania hacks (or exploration hacks as people here call it) being playable by people who haven't registered on this forum. Why on earth would you or anyone else here think it is a good idea to design a game or exploration/metroidvania hack that can only be played by an elite group of people? Quite frankly if this were a discussion for a mod like Eris I would understand the pushback as fixing the gameplay in that would require a massive overhaul that would ruin the visuals (which is probably why no one has attempted it yet even while other great hacks with poor gameplay get remastered). However, in the case of blue plague and hotlands, you literally just need to spend ONE MINUTE to make the mod playable for normal metroidvania players. Why would you not spend that minute? It's so illogical and stupid not to. Just swap out one of the missile tiles for the spring ball upgrade tile in hotlands and increase the defrost countdown in blue plague so that the ripper climb is doable. Quit justifying bad decisions as "challenging gameplay", no one outside this conversation is going to buy that ridiculous argument insofar as those two hacks are concerned.

Want to know something interesting? I've started to become good at glitching now. I would probably be able to finish hacks like lost world. I was able to finally complete hotlands recently (although I still had to temporarily switch my bindings to the keyboard) . I used to be capable of infinite bomb jumping until axeil made me forget how to do it. I don't see this as a good thing though, this veterancy nearly ruined my analysis of escape 2 as I was left with an inaccurate playtime and an incomplete analysis of whether or not the mod is glitch-gated or not and hence actually playable by normal people. My near-veterancy has caused me to no longer represent the average player and made me biased but unlike you, I see that as a problem, not something to be proud of, as I would like to be able to continue giving reviews that are relevant to normal metroidvania players and seeing hacks from the perspective of normal metroidvania players. It is for this reason that I am taking a break now and will play some other non-metroid metroidvanias for a while (HAAK looks very interesting) and I hope I can become somewhat de-veteran'd with time, otherwise I'll probably not be able to properly play through the remaining 13 mods I plan to play without accidentally/instinctively sequence breaking. After that I'll probably become a veteran permanently and for that there are plenty of speerun and challenge hacks to play.

Now come on you guys, spare a minute to fix hotlands and blue plague. Let's make them good examples of what this community is really capable of  :^_^:

[drb]

This is getting off the rails, but... I believe your methodology is flawed. 

I approach every mod I review as if it were its own metroidvania game and judge them accordingly, ignoring any similarities to super Metroid (for obvious reasons). The idea is to analyze the mod from the perspective of someone who bought it as a game on Steam.

I think that a site like this is generally going to draw a much more specific audience than Steam.  I've been here since the M2K2 days and have always observed the typical user on here to have a level of experience with the parent games such that they're comfortable with, or at least willing to become comfortable with, the hidden mechanics and even some of the actual glitches present in the parent games, particularly SM.  I make that distinction because things like IBJ, midair morph and wall jump aren't glitches, they're intended SM mechanics included in the original in either the final demo reel that's unlocked after finishing the game or taught to the player in a 100% playthrough.  I've hardly seen anyone upset with what you call "glitch gating" - most view it as an opportunity to become better players (to Noxus's point above).

This isn't about metroidvania hacks, because this isn't metroidvaniaconstruction.  Yes I'm aware that the parent games fit into the genre, but I think the goal here has always been to make fun, interesting and/or challenging games for people that are passionate about 2D Metroid games specifically.  I hate to come across as a gatekeeper, but I think that such an audience demands a level of challenge beyond what would be present in a more generic metroidvania from somewhere like Steam.  Yes there are options on here for people that have less-than-intimate knowledge of the parent games, or whose skillsets are built around the metroidvania genre in general, but if the majority of the hacks published here were designed for such an audience, the majority of the player base here would probably be rather bored.  So no, I won't stop justifying design decisions as "challenging gameplay" - challenge has always been an essential part of gaming and experienced players deserve challenges that respect their levels of experience.  And that's exactly what this community is capable of providing.

I think you're judging these hacks by what you think it ought to be, instead of what it is.

[Zincoshine]

I think you're judging these hacks by what you think it ought to be, instead of what it is.

Well so be it then. The silver lining in all of this is that when KPF eventually finds blue plague and hotlands I'll get to enjoy reading another hilarious ragequit rant review.  :lol:

[Metaquarius]

I did replay the hack yesterday, the 2nd ripper climb is indeed a bit annoying but not to the point of throwing the controller at the screen. I was more annoyed by the fact I completely missed the area where the climb is and left the lab without supers and wasted some time backtracking elsewhere.

Thing is whenever you try to climb up there. you can see it's a not very tall shaft and this makes a huge difference. You know this can be done with enough perseverance.

Another idea, don't update the hack, just the front page replacing the word "Vanilla" with "Veteran" and "Exploration" with "QuickPlay". :heheh:

[Zincoshine]

Another idea, don't update the hack, just the front page replacing the word "Vanilla" with "Veteran" and "Exploration" with "QuickPlay". :heheh:

I think the latter change is actually a good idea, I personally treated this as a quickplay (although for me quickplay is just MetConstSpeak for "mini-metroidvania" especially as I have found several great zero mission mini-metroidvanias under that category, not to mention 3 for super metroid.)

However, the former change you mentioned creates another problem, namely that veterans will play this and be disappointed by how easy it is for them. Up until that ripper section the mod is of vanilla difficulty, if not easier than vanilla. It's almost as if spending a minute to fix the ice beam is a better solution 🤔

[Metaquarius]

However, the former change you mentioned creates another problem, namely that veterans will play this and be disappointed by how easy it is for them. Up until that ripper section the mod is of vanilla difficulty, if not easier than vanilla.

You are right. Still a hack is only as easy as the most difficult portion of it. Players will have to cross that difficulty spike to finish. It isn't an optional part of the game, it is required.

I also died once against GT and during the escape (timeout) so I would not say those parts were easy. Probably I did not get enough items, and if so, that means players are allowed to get the final boss underprepared, in that case, that's not easier than vanilla.

[Zincoshine]

You know, one thing that made spooky mission 2 so good is that all the extremely difficult parts were all optional. Just one of many reasons why that is one of the best metroidvanias ever made and the best free game I've ever played.

edit: well if there are more parts that are unreasonably hard (and I wouldn't know since I never got past the rippers) then perhaps your suggestion is best.

[Noxus]

So, here's the thing. I value Zinco's insight and agree with most of his viewpoints. I really do! But some of these things, I remember 10 yrs ago just discovering this whole hacking scene. I thought I'd never be able to do any of this. But after trying, over and over again, I found these "glitches" to be actually kind of easy to do once I got the hang of it. Mid air morph used to be tricky for me, but now it comes as second nature. It's just something you do. So, be like Nike and, just do it  :yay: You'll see one day you'll be mastering all this stuff in no time!

This isn't about me though. This is about metroidvania hacks (or exploration hacks as people here call it) being playable by people who haven't registered on this forum. Why on earth would you or anyone else here think it is a good idea to design a game or exploration/metroidvania hack that can only be played by an elite group of people? Quite frankly if this were a discussion for a mod like Eris I would understand the pushback as fixing the gameplay in that would require a massive overhaul that would ruin the visuals (which is probably why no one has attempted it yet even while other great hacks with poor gameplay get remastered). However, in the case of blue plague and hotlands, you literally just need to spend ONE MINUTE to make the mod playable for normal metroidvania players. Why would you not spend that minute? It's so illogical and stupid not to. Just swap out one of the missile tiles for the spring ball upgrade tile in hotlands and increase the defrost countdown in blue plague so that the ripper climb is doable. Quit justifying bad decisions as "challenging gameplay", no one outside this conversation is going to buy that ridiculous argument insofar as those two hacks are concerned.

Want to know something interesting? I've started to become good at glitching now. I would probably be able to finish hacks like lost world. I was able to finally complete hotlands recently (although I still had to temporarily switch my bindings to the keyboard) . I used to be capable of infinite bomb jumping until axeil made me forget how to do it. I don't see this as a good thing though, this veterancy nearly ruined my analysis of escape 2 as I was left with an inaccurate playtime and an incomplete analysis of whether or not the mod is glitch-gated or not and hence actually playable by normal people. My near-veterancy has caused me to no longer represent the average player and made me biased but unlike you, I see that as a problem, not something to be proud of, as I would like to be able to continue giving reviews that are relevant to normal metroidvania players and seeing hacks from the perspective of normal metroidvania players. It is for this reason that I am taking a break now and will play some other non-metroid metroidvanias for a while (HAAK looks very interesting) and I hope I can become somewhat de-veteran'd with time, otherwise I'll probably not be able to properly play through the remaining 13 mods I plan to play without accidentally/instinctively sequence breaking. After that I'll probably become a veteran permanently and for that there are plenty of speerun and challenge hacks to play.

Now come on you guys, spare a minute to fix hotlands and blue plague. Let's make them good examples of what this community is really capable of  :^_^:

Near veterancy?  :lol: :nuhuh:

It's like you're saying, "Casual Street Fighter players can't keep up with veteran players who use the glitch "Hadouken" which takes years to master"

[DonnyDonovan]

After all this discussion I decided to replay also. It's exactly as I recall -- It's a pain, it feels a tad out of place compared to the rest of the hack, and I'd increase the freeze time a bit if it were me.  But, with perseverance and practice it took me maybe 10 minutes worth of attempts to get up the shaft, if that.  It's still a great mini-hack on balance.

There are not other parts that are "unreasonably hard."  If you are picking up all the e-tanks and power-ups available to you the final sequence is of comparable difficulty to everything else.

[Zincoshine]

It's still a great mini-hack on balance.

yeah I completely agree. I want to give it a good score. nodever2 just needs to spare a minute of his time and the good score is all his.

[Noxus]

It's still a great mini-hack on balance.

yeah I completely agree. I want to give it a good score. nodever2 just needs to spare a minute of his time and the good score is all his.

What makes your review of it so special? It's already got a good score. Why should he have to go in and adjust it just to get the Great Zinco's stamp of approval?  :eyeroll:

[Zincoshine]

What makes your review of it so special? It's already got a good score. Why should he have to go in and adjust it just to get the Great Zinco's stamp of approval?  :eyeroll:

you're right, it's not special. That's exactly why I didn't bring this up until now, 6 weeks after playing this hack. The reason I bring it up now? Because someone else has slammed this hack for the same reason and now I can foresee more people slamming the hack in the future. To me, this means it's about time this issue got addressed.

[DonnyDonovan]

The creator has said he's not changing it.  This is all pointless.

[Paragon]

I'm going to attempt to be real tactful about this, and I've been trying to avoid actually engaging because I'm not always great at tact.

Zinco, this isn't Steam. This is a small, niche community of hobbyists and enthusiasts who are doing this for fun. The hacks are not made for everyone. They are made primarily for the hack maker and their friends, secondarily for the community here. They are not made for people looking to play modern "metroidvanias". The people here are here because they love Metroid, full stop. They want more Metroid. If someone outside comes in and plays them and hates it, fine. Their opinions don't really matter.

What you are basically doing is coming in and criticizing fanart, expecting it to appeal to everyone when it isn't meant to. It's not an elitism thing. If you had bothered to come in and engage with us like the small community we are instead of treating us like Steam that has millions of users and acting like a Karen, maybe you'd have a better understanding of what we're about. But honestly, all your haughty opinions and constant misuse of the word "glitch" are genuinely exhausting. (ب_ب)

[Zincoshine]

The creator has said he's not changing it.  This is all pointless.

yeah I agree. This is going nowhere. The creator clearly has little regard for his hack. He hasn't even done anything about the glitchy sprites. I'm out.

The hacks are not made for everyone. They are made primarily for the hack maker and their friends, secondarily for the community here. They are not made for people looking to play modern "metroidvanias". The people here are here because they love Metroid, full stop. They want more Metroid. If someone outside comes in and plays them and hates it, fine. Their opinions don't really matter.

Yeah, I see that now. It's deeply unfortunate.  :nowai: I won't be posting more.

[MetroidNerd#9001]

The creator clearly has little regard for his hack.

There's a difference between having "little regard" for your work and wanting to move on to other things. It would behoove you to assume good faith when making such accusations.

[benox50]

Yea its not steam general public, but I do have to say that Zin is right here, it is an out of place difficulty spike where softening it will make the hack better.
But is it that important of an issue? Yes cause its the main path, but also there is alot of other good things in this hack, the water of the general pool is pretty clear
and if the author doesnt want to change thats ok too, but its not wasted, Zin commenting is good cause the dev will design games better next time.

[Exister]

Benox, I don't think that Zinc commenting is inherently bad, but the way they go about it is. To demand a fix insistently as well as go so far as to say the hacker "has no regard" for the hack is just rude and insensitive. You can just make a suggestion and move on, and that is not what's happening here. Also for the record, I wall jumped around half of the ice challenge in question so I didn't find it that bad. :grin: I would generally agree that it's too much of a spike, but there being cheese softens the blow I think

[FelixWright]

For the record, I wall jumped around half of the ice challenge in question so I didn't find it that bad. :grin:

Exister, you seem to forget that wall jumping is a glitch. Actually good metroid mods should not require the use of any glitches whatsoever.

[nodever2]

Thanks to this hack being featured in the Monthly SM Romhacks races, some new ways to play The Blue Plague have been developed!

Ironrusty's Blue Plague Logical Randomizer: Play the hack with items placed in a random order! This allows some new routes through the hack that were never before possible.

InsaneFirebat's Blue Plague Practice Hack: Interested in speedrunning this hack? Join the leaderboards with the help of the SM practice hack now ported to the Blue Plague, featuring integrated speedrunning practice aids.

Thank you to all involved and GG to the racers. Congrats to ironrusty for winning the race with a time of 23:20!

These links will be added to the first post on this thread too.