SM Redesign: Axeil Edition FINAL

[squishy_ichigo]

So how many people have completed the EPBC without help from Drewseph? :>

One of these days I might actually go back and try and finish Axiel version, I'm waiting on 1.6.

[Aran;Jaeger]

Without tools? None are known. And yes, some Crateria Super Missile is accessible after Brinstar which I wasn't aware of, which opens up all of the rest from where things are far more clear. I basically didn't want to check through things for further hours on my own and wanted an easy and quick clarification on if one could progress after Brinstar since I had asked Drewseph about this already twice before on the irc without any response. But Elminster will continue working on it (especially the Lower Norfair escape) after the Metroid Marathon for which he practices (old) Redesign any% currently. He also insists in doing the EPBC the way he thinks it is intended, namely without getting Highjump right after Speedbooster via a Flashsuit/free spark, which would extremely help in the Lower Norfair escape. Though I will be taking Highjump early for it, and am also planning on max% for it which takes more time than just finishing it in any way. 52% very most likely is not max% for the EPBC, but we will see at some time later.

[Foxhound3857]

Alright, I've found a really tricky way to get through this, but after seeing the room beyond, I'm wondering if I actually got into here the CORRECT way.

(for reference, this room can be found just to the left of the Maridia elevator in Crateria Depths, or two rooms to the right of where you fought Phantoon)

So, here's what I did. Started a charge in the previous room to the left, the dark hallway right after Phantoon. With the charge stored, ran back into this room, jumped across two platforms to the other side, with a ramp to keep refreshing the charge. The platform above was too high to jump to, so I have to wait for the Skultera to mosey over to this side. Two charged shots with the Ice Beam to freeze it while refreshing the charge. Jump on it, up to the platform above, to the next one, stand on the very edge and shinespark straight up. Entered the room on the right for Power Bombs, come back and the remaining blocks are gone. Felt good about pulling this one off.

Then I went to the left and saw speed booster blocks going up the hill. Couldn't proceed further without going back to store another charge, and actually got stuck by accidentally morphing underneath them.

But did I actually get into this room the correct way, or was I supposed to come from the other side of that room at some point?

P:S I don't have Space Jump yet. Have not gone to Maridia yet.

[Aran;Jaeger]

No that is not the intended way (one is supposed to run downhill from the left room to break this floor). It is used in a speedrun route (with Flashsuit though I think, instead of getting a spark close to this place and slope-recharging it) developed by Personitis and Elminster, but for the old Redesign.

[Foxhound3857]

Okay, well judging by my map, I'm assuming that I need the Wave Beam to get to this area, because the one room that might connect to this area is blocked by a wrong-side shutter. This hack loves its shinespark puzzles, that's why I assumed I had to do all the flashy crap I did to get through here.

One more PB pack if nothing else. And I feel pretty good for pulling off a speedrun strat and a sequence break (without savestates, no savestates this whole game), even if it's a very small one.  :grin:

Edit: A little help? I saw ramps in the room before this one, but where am I supposed to get the charge for it?



NEVERMIND, I FIGURED OUT WHERE. Satan himself must have designed this one. The reward better be worth it when I pull it off.

Edit 2: Super Missiles. Good enough, at least it wasn't a small Missile tank.

Edit 3: STUMPED AGAIN.

http://i590.photobucket.com/albums/ss348/Foxhound3857/SM%203.png

Cannot enter the shaft from the bottom, cannot unmorph fast enough to start space jumping in the shaft.

[Zero Dozer]

Alright, I've found a really tricky way to get through this, but after seeing the room beyond, I'm wondering if I actually got into here the CORRECT way.

(for reference, this room can be found just to the left of the Maridia elevator in Crateria Depths, or two rooms to the right of where you fought Phantoon)

So, here's what I did. Started a charge in the previous room to the left, the dark hallway right after Phantoon. With the charge stored, ran back into this room, jumped across two platforms to the other side, with a ramp to keep refreshing the charge. The platform above was too high to jump to, so I have to wait for the Skultera to mosey over to this side. Two charged shots with the Ice Beam to freeze it while refreshing the charge. Jump on it, up to the platform above, to the next one, stand on the very edge and shinespark straight up. Entered the room on the right for Power Bombs, come back and the remaining blocks are gone. Felt good about pulling this one off.

Then I went to the left and saw speed booster blocks going up the hill. Couldn't proceed further without going back to store another charge, and actually got stuck by accidentally morphing underneath them.

But did I actually get into this room the correct way, or was I supposed to come from the other side of that room at some point?

P:S I don't have Space Jump yet. Have not gone to Maridia yet.

That's what I did to get to the same item... Without Gravity Suit. And without help from a frozen Skultera. I just timed the Shinespark right to hit a slope on the other side and then shoot up from the same point you did.

@Foxhound3857 : It wasn't meant for you to access the room from that way.



You need to access it from either Brinstar's Central Zebes Express elevator or doing a Shinespark chain (described by the colored arrows) at the area under the shaft.

But let me warn you, this chain is hard to do due to the short time frame you have to race between each spark.

[Foxhound3857]

Yeah, I figured it out. Not fun, that one. Literally had to comb every room in that area with X-Ray to find the booster blocks. For that matter, I've been doing that in Maridia trying to find a way to the center chozo statue. I cannot figure out how to get inside that glass tube, and I've combed every square inch of that area with X-Ray. I like how the hint system clues me in on their location, and I'm sure I'll figure it out, but still, even when you know where stuff is in this hack, you gotta WORK for it. I like that to a degree, but all the shinespark puzzles and the difficulty of some of them is a bit much.

Fun fact: I could've gotten Wave Beam way earlier than I did too. Completely overlooked that innocent little dot in the upper left of Norfair.

[Zero Dozer]

One in Maridia's lower left area? This one will break only when Ridley is defeated.

[Foxhound3857]

One in Maridia's lower left area? This one will break only when Ridley is defeated.

Do I have to kill Ridley to access the one in Eastern Crateria too? Trying to find a route to that one too.

Either way, thanks for saving me hours of heartache. I would've searched for hours and not found a solution.

[Beardy]

This row of speed blocks is easy to break.
All you have to do is shinespark from the bottom of the room and Samus will automatically weave through the platforms and break through.
Go to the bottom of the room, kill the Kago and open the door on the left.
Start from the right of where the Kago was and run to the left through the door and store a charge, you'll probably have to stutter tap it.
Then run back to the right and stand in the proper position (right of Kago) and spark up. Easy peasy.

[Foxhound3857]

Yeah, I made it harder than it needed to be. It doesn't hold a candle to the one in Maridia though. I had to carry that one through at least 4 rooms.

[Beardy]

The problem with one of those chains in Maridia is that you have to store a charge on a ramp that leads right into a wall and often it will bump you into the wall and drop your charge even if your inputs were fine.

[Foxhound3857]

The problem with one of those chains in Maridia is that you have to store a charge on a ramp that leads right into a wall and often it will bump you into the wall and drop your charge even if your inputs were fine.

Yeah I lost the charge a few times there, and I botched it once after succeeding too. Thankfully it only took about 20 minutes of practice. Definitely the hardest Shinespark puzzle I came across.

Surprisingly I found every single E-Tank in the game. Had to consult a map to find the last R-Tank, but that's fine. A lot of the E-Tanks were behind Shinespark puzzles, which is okay I guess, but one of the things I need to address in my upcoming review is how poorly balanced item distribution is (too little in the beginning, too much in the middle).

Now for Tourian. The place my mother warned me about. The place my father lectured me about.

[PHOSPHOTiDYL]

Now for Tourian. The place my mother warned me about. The place my father lectured me about.

Good luck.

[Foxhound3857]

Finished.

Clear time: 14:47



Tourian took me about 2 1/2 hours to find my way through. It was done brilliantly, though I am going to waylay it some in my review for the excessively overpowered Metroids and how difficult it is to find the Zebetites. Escape took 2 tries.

Need to go find the animals now. I have an idea of where they are, I just need to be able to get there and back in time.

Edit: Saved the Animals with 56 seconds to spare. One hell of a detour, but they're worth it.

Submitted my review.

[Elminster]

Finally finished up the Early Power Bomb Challenge last night. Streamed the whole thing. Used Wii Virtual Console, so no savestates.

All I can say is good god, I never want to have to do some of these tricks again. Definitely an interesting playthrough that required a lot of... ingenuity, to put it politely.

Stats: [spoiler] [/spoiler]

Inventory: [spoiler]

I actually had 73/12/9 in terms of ammo, but hadn't refilled in this screenshot, oops.[/spoiler]

[Foxhound3857]

Edit: Didn't realize that boost was just from crouching. Stupid me.

Hey Elm, have you tried speedrunning Axeil edition? I know you speedrun the original Redesign, I'm just curious if it's even possible to speedrun the Axeil edition since Drewseph basically removed any notion of sequence breaking, OoB, and even most time-saving techniques in Axeil.

By possible, I mean doesn't take over 3 hours just to complete an any% run.

[personitis]

It's certainly possible to speedrun Axiel Edition. Whether or not the game has the potential to be lower than what the original is (and that's not even as low as possible yet), is still unknown. Below I'll spoiler some thoughts and findings we put together one night. It's also important to keep in mind that Axiel Edition is a constant WIP and as things potentially get fixed or altered throughout the versions, tricks or routes could become phased out, thus making it slower.
[spoiler]
As of 1.52...

• There's a single early Power Bomb that can be picked up right after Spore Spawn Super Missiles. It's to do with the gate/bomb maze nearby and requires quite tricky Morph Ball and Bomb skills.
• Building off of the above, if you were to think about ignoring Crocomire, you'll do fine until you run into a locked door just above the first save in Norfair, after Kraid on your way to Grapple Beam. Presumably, this is able to be opened after Crocomire is killed, but by opting to take a leap of faith into a lava bath, using a platform enemy to rise out of the lava in Screw Attack's room, he's completely skipable. Whether or not the trade-off in time invested for a single, early Power Bomb is worth it versus fighting Crocomire for three powers is unknown.
• While not possible to skip first two/thirds of mushroom Crateria and Crateria depths like original Redesign does, it is still possible to skip the first half of Crateria Depths itself with a one time crumble grapple block. Pretty much anything cutting out suitless underwater is going to save time.
• Plasma Beam can be acquired early by defeating a single specific enemy in the "8 super block barricade" room (the room where you have to shoot Super Missiles downward to advance). This could have some nice application for defeating Ridley and Golden Torizo faster, but also suffers from being unknown whether getting it early actually saves time.
• Still having the choice to defeat either the Maridia or Norfair bosses first is a pleasant choice.
• There is no longer (to my knowledge) a way to break into Lower Norfair via Grapple Beam's room. Original has the option to do this efficiently right after Gravity Suit and Screw Attack. It's is theorized that this route in the original is faster, simply because it cuts out some backtracking and removes the "ammo gauntlet" that is the first half of Lower Norfair. Again, Axeil Edition does not provide this option.
• Beam Combo can be acquired early through some tricky chain sparking. This could be useful, but hasn't/wasn't looked into. Likely due to it only saving minor amounts of time for Draygon and Mother Brain while operating under the assumption that clearing out Lower Norfair before Draygon is still faster.
• Some guardians have been moved around. This fact alone could have some small impact on the route, but due to Redesign being such a large game, small changes easily end up turning into fairly well-sized investments.
• Tourian. This is the largest deal breaker in my opinion. I imagine more ammo would be required to minimize constantly running back to the first room to refill for zebitites and doors. There's also the fact that it's structured to have a lot of back-and-forth for removing death beams. Changes in Metroid AI shouldn't be too bad when practiced enough, but they do have a less straight-forward approach as well.
• Finally, there's the Early Power Bomb Challenge. After watching about half of Elm's agonizing playthrough, my original thoughts of ruling it out of the equation aren't as big as I once thought them to be. Getting around the planet may be more funneled, but what I once thought would take far longer, may not. Having to deal with an almost similar Tourian is still a problem toward ending time.

[/spoiler]
Whew...

As you might have guessed, I've spent a lot of time picking the original apart and with some help from others (Elminster and Aran;Jaeger mainly), we've managed to get a really strong grip on the world of Redesign Original. Elm's current run beats it in just under 2:30 realtime and that still has some fair mistakes in addition to not even being the fastest route. As when you add things to the route and start to alter it, the game becomes increasingly difficult to complete and starts biting back even harder than before. We're still not sure how low the original can go, but we think that "The Run" can get in the 2:15 range. Estimates in the past though have been laughable as I originally estimated after my first race with MetroidMst that "sub 3:58 would be a good deathless run" and that's been a joke since.

Here's to hoping all this is somewhat valuable information to anyone aside from the few of us who have looked hard enough at the game to be interested of put it to use. As it stands, Tourian is the largest drawback in my eyes toward Axiel Edition being faster.

[Foxhound3857]

I watched Elm get the early Beam Combo by shinesparking up the sandfall. I'm going to attempt that in my next run. It can't be that much worse than some of the shinesparking puzzles you have to do (I.E the one in Maridia requiring traversing 5 rooms with a charge in tow).

The only game I've ever officially speedrun is Quest 64, which is very RNG heavy. Truth be told, I'm a bit afraid to attempt speedrunning a game like Super Metroid, or ANY of the Metroids honestly, because of how technical they can get. It's less about luck/RNG and more about precision and flawless execution, which I'm not sure is something I could achieve even with lots of practice. But Redesign has peaked my interest in this regard (at least the Original) because, while still requiring lots of precision, it does a lot to bring the insanity of the technical aspects of the game down to earth.

Tough shinesparking puzzles, for instance, are the norm in Redesign, not just a crazy-difficult technique to shave a few seconds off of every corridor they can be used in. You're expected to do them quite a bit, at least to collect certain expansions. But the mechanics of Redesign still make it a more friendly technique to execute than in vanilla (being able to refresh charges, easier to spin jump and not charge accidentally, they last longer, etc). And then there's things like walljumping and IBJ, which can only be applied to certain situations. You still have to be able to execute these flawlessly when the game demands it, but you don't have to constantly incorporate them again and again to save time at every turn, which eases the pressure a bit (and I don't mean walljumping in general, which is much easier in Axeil, I mean doing it in more difficult situations, like off of one wall or under tight overhangs) After watching a few of Elm's speedruns and seeing what an actual run of Redesign were to entail, I think I could learn to do it, at least one of them, if I could get to the point where I can comfortably complete the game deathless.

But after seeing Tourian in Axeil edition, I'm not sure I can. I played the Original a long time ago, and while my memories of Tourian weren't fond, it wasn't THAT bad to get through. But Axeil's Tourian is just total lunacy. They're not Metroids...they're Drewtroids.

Sadly, even if I wanted to, I can't stream on wireless DSL. *sigh*

[CaRmAgE]

So how many people have completed the EPBC without help from Drewseph? :>

I received some help from Zeke for a part of Maridia, as well as a couple hints based on the progress of others, but that was about it.

52% very most likely is not max% for the EPBC, but we will see at some time later.

The max I was able to get was 67.5%.  I actually went ahead and used cheats to see what the theoretical max would be (as in every remaining upgrade in the game is either completely blocked off by EPB blockades, or just too unrealistic to get, like Norfair's Reserve Tank), and I got 79.7%.  Getting that high, however, would require getting shinesparks in extremely restricted locations, and getting Space Jump (even if you make it to Botwoon's door, the door above that leads to a room where you can charge a shinespark is greyed out).

[spoiler]

• There is no longer (to my knowledge) a way to break into Lower Norfair via Grapple Beam's room. Original has the option to do this efficiently right after Gravity Suit and Screw Attack. It's is theorized that this route in the original is faster, simply because it cuts out some backtracking and removes the "ammo gauntlet" that is the first half of Lower Norfair. Again, Axeil Edition does not provide this option.

[/spoiler]

[spoiler]In the grapple room leading to Speed Booster, there is a platform in the middle that you can damage boost to and from.  The platform vanishes once you have Crocomire's Power Bomb.  So, if you get the early Power Bomb in Brinstar, you can also get early Speed Booster.  You can then use a shinespark in the Grapple Beam room to break into LN.

Whether this is actually faster than the normal route is debatable, though, as until you get Gravity Suit, nothing in LN drops pickups.[/spoiler]

[personitis]

[spoiler]In the grapple room leading to Speed Booster, there is a platform in the middle that you can damage boost to and from.  The platform vanishes once you have Crocomire's Power Bomb.  So, if you get the early Power Bomb in Brinstar, you can also get early Speed Booster.  You can then use a shinespark in the Grapple Beam room to break into LN.

Whether this is actually faster than the normal route is debatable, though, as until you get Gravity Suit, nothing in LN drops pickups.[/spoiler]

:shocking: This is quite the information. Thanks for sharing.

The only game I've ever officially speedrun is Quest 64, which is very RNG heavy. Truth be told, I'm a bit afraid to attempt speedrunning a game like Super Metroid, or ANY of the Metroids honestly, because of how technical they can get. It's less about luck/RNG and more about precision and flawless execution, which I'm not sure is something I could achieve even with lots of practice. But Redesign has peaked my interest in this regard (at least the Original) because, while still requiring lots of precision, it does a lot to bring the insanity of the technical aspects of the game down to earth.

First off, the underlined part: LOL. Second, I'd say look at it this way: would you rather lose time or a run to a mistake that you had made with your own hands and can improve on next time? Or would you rather lose it to something you've very little to absolutely no control over? The technical level of skill used to move around Super Metroid is a skill and can be built with focused practice.

While it's true that Redesign streamlines a lot of the more advanced movements, it's wise to remember that saving large chunks of time outside of general movement comes down to executing high-risk high-reward tricks. Earlier routes you don't have to do as many of these tricks and it really depends how far you want to push a time or if you're willing to switch to a more difficult route. Death in Redesign runs are going to happen. It's not an easy feat to pull a deathless run, especially at a few chokepoints. Early on, a lot of time save comes from better movement through rooms, not dying, and knowing your way around the planet.

Redesign speedruns are definitely not for everyone, but you shouldn't be afraid going into it. That's a negative mindset and only hinders your interest. Believe me, Redesign as a speedrun will break you if you're not willing to accept what it can do. You need be willing to work with it and learn from it.

[Foxhound3857]

Well, I guess the thing to do would be to start by studying Elm's any% speedruns and see if I can learn anything from it. But I really want to see if Axeil edition is speedrunnable because I'm becoming familiar with that game (where the major upgrades are, how to get through most rooms, etc).

But what I meant by the underlined part was that, although the cost of failing a hard time-saving trick may be much higher in Redesign compared to Vanilla, I don't feel like those tricks are "quite" as difficult to execute from a technical standpoint compared to some of the ones in vanilla SM (diagonal/horizontal IBJ and moat CWJ come to mind). IBJ is definitely a tough one in Redesign though, the timing is very precise, but other than that I don't recall seeing anything that required frame-perfect precision in Redesign, like some of the things required in Cliffhanger Redux, or Fusion's "Bob Skip".

[Zero Dozer]

You know what would be cool? Videos of Axeil Edition sequence breaks. Personitis stated it is possible, so now I want him to prove those words true.

[Foxhound3857]

Hey guys, I did a bit of testing last night with Mother Brain. Having finished three runs of Axeil, I'm strongly interested in attempting/routing a low% run for the hack (casually, not a speedrun), even though it seems like most of the upgrades outside of beams/beam combo are largely unskippable (assuming you're not also doing an EPBC). I'm still working on the list of what is absolutely required to grab in a theoretical low% challenge for Axeil, but the two big things I was concerned about were: Purple Doors, and Mother Brain 1. You need at least some combination of 25 missiles minimum to deal with the Purples in the rooms where refills are not possible, and at the same time you need to meet a minimum threshold of missiles to be able to crack MB and get to phase 2. What follows is the lengthy amount of research that I spent last night and this morning amassing in preparation for my own attempt at the low% challenge. I really want to see if this can become a thing in Axeil.

Having done a few hours of testing with Supers, I've gathered the following numbers. Note that the glass case is completely broken after 18 hits total, and STAYS broken once it's gone, even if you leave to refill and come back. Also note that Mother Brain has a weakness to Supers, doing triple the damage that they normally would. Mother Brain takes 60 missiles to bring to phase 2, and 1 Super deals the equivalent of 15 missiles to MB.

Incorporating Super missiles, I've tested and confirmed the following number of hits will send MB into phase 2.

60 Missiles
45 Missiles and 1 Super
30 Missiles and 2 Supers
15 Missiles and 3 Supers
4 Supers

Since you need a minimum of 18 missiles to completely destroy MB's glass barrier, 15/3 seems to be the minimum number and the lowest percent you can get away with. So this would involve picking up the mandatory expansions in Crateria and above Spore Spawn, plus 1 large missile expansion and 1 small super expansion, bringing your count to 15 and 3. 15/3 also leaves you with enough to crack purple doors with a full salvo (you'll either have 1 super or 5 missiles leftover once you've cracked it). I would have to test if this is enough to shatter zebetite barriers to shut off death lasers. It'd be awfully tight with the slow firing rate of Supers and you'd need to refill in between barriers, and hope for refills from Drewtroids (of which 3 Supers will be JUST ENOUGH to deal with the triple Drewtroid rooms).

Also, MB's Hyper Beam does exactly 439 damage, with or without suits, which means a minimum of 4 E Tanks are required as well.

So to recap, so far, what I've deduced is absolutely mandatory for completing the game:

15 Missiles
3 Super Missiles
4 Energy Tanks
1 Power Bomb (grab the one near Spore Spawn)

Charge Beam
Ice Beam
Varia Suit
Gravity Suit
Morph Ball
Bombs
Wall Jump Boots
Hi Jump Boots
Speed Booster
Space Jump
Grappling Beam

Can we eliminate any of this? I don't really remember if Wave Beam is mandatory or not, and I also don't know if the 3-pack from Crocomire is needed, or if you can get by with just 1 Power Bomb. I will attempt a playthrough with these items and see if I can reduce anywhere, or if I need to add anything to the collection pool.

I'm starting a low% playthrough now. Will keep you all updated.

P.S: I don't know how to hide things behind spoilers, if this post is too long or reveals anything other players might not want to know. Apologies for that.

[Zero Dozer]

You probably forget that there are doors that demand 25 missiles instead of just five (Five Super Missiles also do the trick). Then again, making do with a low count and combining your stock on those doors may work. (Noting that those doors appear on your way into boss rooms.)