SM Redesign: Axeil Edition FINAL

[zaphod77]

Apparently in Redesign land, skip means "never get it ever". In Normal Super Metroid, skip means "come back and get it later"

I tried this, having played the original before, and find this one more frustrating overall now.

The first one i knew it was gonna be a challenge hack.  Knowing this, my tolerance for cheapness was increased.  I persevered, i used a bit of save stating when i kelp dying too much, i explored, i got frustrated at times, but I still had fun.

But with the challenge cheapness removed, the way the game punishes you for trying to be clever and not being a good little player and following the path you are supposed to stands out a LOT more.

Oh, hey, i can open this missile door! What's behind it? oh, a super missile door. Oh, a Grey door. Oh, a place i can't go because i don't have walljump.

Oh, look i have walljump now. oh hey I can climb up that spot back by the elevator. i wonder what's there. Oh look a super missile door.  I do not have super missiles bacause of, well see below.

Oh i killed spore spawn, super missile here I come. except oh wait it's blocked. I need bombs. I don't have bombs.

Oh, hey i can still one wall wall-jump. hey if i time it JUST right, i can cross this big gap, reach the other wall, and get up there with more one wall walljumping and maybe get something for my trouble. Oh wait, i can't. The other wall, even though it looks JUST like the one i wall-jumped off of, is not wall jumpable.  LOL player, you thought you could actually make it?  At least have the courtesy to make that bit OBVIOUSLY ungrippable.

It seems there is a very specific path that you are expected to follow, and I know of exactly three deviations.

1) Hells Run skip (I agree, this one is nice, speaking as someone who survived Hells Run and thought it was the best part of the original hack, I know it's not everyone's cup of tea) Second best is the metroid in escape without ice beam. :)
2) wall jump skip.
3) bombs skip. (this is apparently the low percent run)

The original super Metroid seemed to lead you around a specific path, but there was so much you could do to break from it.  Is there a Reverse Boss Order run in Redesign? I don't think so. :)  Even linear as heck fusion specifically supported a low percentage run, placing alternate solutions when places would be otherwise impossible.

What if you want to get bombs before walljump so i can collect spore spawns super missile without having to back track? Tough, you are locked out of walljump forever, and are then forced to IBJ everywhere you would otherwise walljump to until you get space jump.

Does it ever get any better? At what point in the game do you stop running into new dead ends rapidly after each powerup?

With what everyone is saying, i think Tourian will be my favorite part, if I ever get there.

Original Metroid has maybe three railroads if you don't glitch.

1) you must collect the missile first on the way to Tourian
2) you must collect bombs before braving norfair if you want to get anything but a few more missiles.
3) you must collect ice beam before Tourian.

Sure you are expected to get missile, long beam, energy tank, bombs, ice beam, high jump, go back and get Varia, screw attack, more stuff, maybe wave beam, beat bosses. but there's a lot of flexibility, and even MORE when you add glitches and bugs.

Some other design decisions again stifle creativity.

I can forgive the "you go out of bounds, you die".  But arbitrary "no you can't wall jump here, that would let you sequence break" "no, you can't morph ball jump here, that would let you sequence break" get really old fast.

I get that getting upgrades out of order can trivialize puzzles and challenges.  But why does the game have to troll you so much for trying to explore, which is the heart of Metroid?

I would make the following changes.

1) stop double and triple locking areas. Requiring a boss beaten. okay. requiring missiles. ok. requiring super missiles. okay.  But putting a grey door RIGHT behind a missile door? putting a super missile door RIGHT behind a wall jump area when you aren't expected to have super missiles when you first see it? If you must lock something behind a grey door AND a missile door put the missile door SECOND.  If you must triple lock something, place the obstacle that you are expected to bypass last FIRST. Yes i know, this seems to contradict my complaints of trolling, but I consider getting my hopes dashed when i'm not even TRYING to sequence break even worse.

2)  Throw people who want to explore a bone or two.  Let them get a missile upgrade early with being clever when they already have missiles. same for super missiles and power bombs and energy tanks and reserve tanks.  Put stuff in where the sequence breaker way is the hard way. Say something that's very difficult but possible to one wall jump up to.  Put in stuff you can IBJ up to before you can get the space jump, with the intended method being space jump. You can let people do this and yet still not break your challenges and puzzles.  I would be happier to accept "you can't fight bosses or get powerups out of order period" if there WAS stuff I could do out of order with effort and gain some benefit.

I have no real problem with making people have to try 5 times as hard if they want to sequence break.  But some should be possible without tool assistance and without crippling your game. EPB is pretty much the games saying "Oh you really wanna sequence break? Let's sequence break. Congratulations, you are locked into a path 20 times as hard and not even remotely fair."  At least if you found a sequence break too hard, you could always give up in most other games.

[Rezbyte]

Apparently in Redesign land, skip means "never get it ever". In Normal Super Metroid, skip means "come back and get it later"

Ok then. Id be happy with just a change to the Readme because this wasnt obvious to me.

I fully agree with zaphod77, more opportunities to sequence break would be great. But the fixed path is deliberate design choice and it works. Its up to Drewseph to decide if its worth to try to fix what isn't broken.

[zaphod77]

I get that thee's an intended path.  but it's frustrating trying to explore and blundering into so many dead ends that you thought weren't gonna be one because you just got a new powerup.  And the map itself trolls you a lot. Often times what looks like a shorter path doesn't work at all.

it was more fun when i got to the hell run vs no hell run choice, but when i got there I only had 2 tanks, and i needed three for hells run last time. is three still needed?

And what's with those random earthquakes. once i got one while morph jumping into a corridor backwards in brinstar before I got wall jump. Some clue as to what they do would be nice, such as "a pathway has become blocked" or "a new pathway has opened".

[TheAnonymousUser]

it was more fun when i got to the hell run vs no hell run choice, but when i got there I only had 2 tanks, and i needed three for hells run last time. is three still needed?

Axeil's hell run is doable with only 2 e-tanks, only it's a lot less lenient than redesign.

And what's with those random earthquakes. once i got one while morph jumping into a corridor backwards in brinstar before I got wall jump. Some clue as to what they do would be nice, such as "a pathway has become blocked" or "a new pathway has opened".

...Some clue...

but...but that defeats the point of redesign

[CaRmAgE]

Axeil's hell run is doable with only 2 e-tanks, only it's a lot less lenient than redesign.

I'd say that it's less lenient in the fact that you have to watch your missile count.  Since all the enemies always drop large energy during the run, I'd think it's a little easier than before.  (The original was so hard, I always needed to get the fourth energy tank first just to have even a chance of making it.)

2)  Throw people who want to explore a bone or two.  Let them get a missile upgrade early with being clever when they already have missiles. same for super missiles and power bombs and energy tanks and reserve tanks.  Put stuff in where the sequence breaker way is the hard way. Say something that's very difficult but possible to one wall jump up to.  Put in stuff you can IBJ up to before you can get the space jump, with the intended method being space jump. You can let people do this and yet still not break your challenges and puzzles.  I would be happier to accept "you can't fight bosses or get powerups out of order period" if there WAS stuff I could do out of order with effort and gain some benefit.

Actually, there are sequence breaks in Redesign.  You can get the Screw Attack before Space Jump through a variety of different ways, including IBJ.  There's also a different Power Bomb you can get early that doesn't trigger the EPB challenge (just to name a couple).  I haven't really looked too much into a lot of these, but supposedly, the damage boost mechanic can help you sequence break, so try that for some locations you can't reach normally (you can actually go pretty far with it).

[Drewseph]

once you make it to he ship while beginning the EPBC, you can go get bombs, and skip WJ if you'd like.  once you trigger the EPBC (returning to the first missile and triggering the quake) you are stuck without bombs or WJ

[Alukraid]

Too much hatred for dis awesome man. Redesign/Axeil clearly isn't for you (the people complaining, wah wah Q_Q) so just move on and find another romhack to play or learn SMILE and make your own romhack, lol. Good luck!

I know 3 people that actually enjoy what Axeil is. When you play a romhack, you play the creators vision and ideas. Accept this. Stop comparing romhacks with one another, every one of them is supposed to be different. (I'll admit that I haven't read a lot of posts in this thread but I get what goes on by talking with Drew a lot)

If Drew changed everything that everyone wanted changed then it wouldn't really be his romhack anymore would it? It'd be like a crowdfunded romhack (uh, minus the money) and you know how kickstarter games can be.

[zaphod77]

If i hated it i wouldn't be still playing it. :)

But man, the troll factor this hack has is still HUGE.

Okay new suggestion list.
1) Make a trollface appear on the screen any time the hack manages to troll you. :) 
2) Keep a trollface counter that's shown at mission end. :)

(drew, was the intent to troll the player?  if so i actualyl feel a lot better about it)

[A Dummy]

I think it would be better if early bombs didn't lock people out of Walljump, EPB is fine the way it is.

[Alukraid]

Nothing about this hack is trolling.. people who think that have no patience, creativity when searching, and need to "gidgud" I think that's the phrase. ;-)

[Quietus]

Apparently in Redesign land, skip means "never get it ever". In Normal Super Metroid, skip means "come back and get it later"

Generally speaking, 'skip' refers to an item being omitted completely from whichever route you're taking, and there is usually no intention of collecting it later. This applies to all games / hacks.

[zaphod77]

Nothing about this hack is trolling.. people who think that have no patience, creativity when searching, and need to "gidgud" I think that's the phrase. ;-)

Skill and search have nothing to do with it.

When you backtrack a few rooms to go to what was a deadend because you didn't have the powerup, and then find out it's STILL a complete dead end because you are missing the powerup to get past the NEXT obstacle, that's being trolled.

When there is a powerup right after the boss that you can't collect because you don't have the NEXT powerup, which is all the way across the map and you couldn't get it before killing the boss, that's being trolled.

When you one wall wall jump way up in the air to try and get the item you know must be up there, and then end up falling just short when you try to hop over, come back with high jump, and still fail due to ceiling bumping (guess you need space jump after all) that's being trolled.

Oh, and that sidehopper right near the charge beam? quite a troll move. when you first find it, beating it is very difficult, the obvious safe way doesn't actually work (he hops up to stomp you after about 5 attempts), and if you do beat it, or come back later to kill it, there's nothing on the other side anyway (at least according to x ray scope).

[Rovaen]

Hey Drew, just wanted to drop by and say thanks a bunch for this hack! I grew up playing the shit outta SM, and when I was a teenager I played redesign and boy was it damn hard, plenty of save states and do-overs. Forced me to learn new tricks too in order to complete it but I had fun! Now that you've released this version all these years later I had the fun of going back with practically no memory of the first one (save for a few layouts and areas ;) ). Let it be known that I was never a great player, maybe not even good.. I knew how to ibj and single wall jump but stuff like shinespark tricks and hbj and mockball were out of my realm.. I'm glad this hack wasn't as hard as I remember the original redesign being. Very completable and very fun! Only thing I would tell you I'm not happy about is those darn metroids!

To any and all of you that have trouble with this hack, you're just not there yet in skill but you can be! it's not as hard as it seems to get to the level it asks of you ;) ! Also, it's a free piece of work done by someone who cares enough to listen, so try not to be so angry (some of you) and so full of contempt for drew. I won't tell you to go out and make your own, as that's a poor way to address criticism, but redesign was never meant for people who didn't apply themselves at learning some of the more complex tricks. Try to remember that, again, this is a free, complete, and thoughtful hack, that could just as easily not have existed at all.

Thanks again drew for all the hard work, and see you next mission! 9/10 hack

[zaphod77]

Apparently in Redesign land, skip means "never get it ever". In Normal Super Metroid, skip means "come back and get it later"

Generally speaking, 'skip' refers to an item being omitted completely from whichever route you're taking, and there is usually no intention of collecting it later. This applies to all games / hacks.

Maybe, but you can usually still return later for it.

And the original person wanted to get bombs first to avoid the backtrack to get them later (a pretty reasonable idea, actually), and was unaware he'd be punished by being forever denied the ability to get wall jump.

There's temporary skipping for sequence breaking, and there's skipping for its' own sake. usually when you go somewhere to get something you aren't supposed to get yet (and skip the powerup needed to get it normally) you generally go back and collect the powerup you were supposed to ave when it's on your way.

I respect the EPB challenge, and that you have to prove yourself worthy to even attempt it.  Early bombs is pretty much the game saying "oh, you wanna IBJ now? Let's IBJ now.", even though that may not be WHY the person wants the bombs earlier.

I'm sorry for seeming so hostile. but i played it with not enough memory of the original, and just found myself saying "SERIOUSLY?!?!" and "OH COME ON!" a lot more times than i expected based on the description.

I saw the criticism, and the notion that he's attempting to make the hack more accessible.

Anyway a positive suggestion.

place second copies of everything you had to skip on the EPB route during the escape. including bombs and WJ. place those two last of course.  This way a 100% EPB route is possible, but you still remain locked out of what you are supposed to. it was done before with the hells run emergency tanks, so i think it's possible placing them a bit out of the way is fair game. :)

[Steyiak]

Just finished my playthrough of this so here's my thoughts on it.
First of all, I'd like to say congrats on making this hack. This version of Redesign is in my opinion better than the previous one on all aspects. The only thing the previous one has over this is nostalgia. I enjoyed most parts of this hack and was even able to beat it without using any savestates which is always a plus. That being said, I will focus more on what I didn't like from now on.
Firstly, I would like to comment on the difficulty. While it is much fairer than the original, it still is a difficult hack at times. The problem is that it often gets cheaply difficult. The lava in Norfair is still the primary reason for this. While there always seems to be a way out of the lava, it almost always is a brutal way out often requiring more than 150 energy units due to the slow liquid speed. This happens throughout Norfair and it gets quite annoying when trying to beat the hack without savestates. Another issue is the lack of consistency. For example, in Maridia there are some sandfalls that stop Samus from space jumping against them while others don't cause that. The worst example of this, however, is in Brinstar. For one of the green switches you have to shoot to free the bird, you have to work your way up a small vertical room. The proper way in this room is from the right but there is a ball tunnel from the left which leads you into thin air so that you fall to the lower room. It should be possible after exiting the ball tunnel to unmorph, execute a in-air spin and use the space jump to fly your way up but that just does not work because the game does not allow you to unmorph for whatever reason. That part annoyed me a lot because of how random and trolly it was. Lastly, Tourian. It was an enjoyable area (I especially liked the AI changes you did to metroids) but it suffers from being to complex at a point in the game when the player is mostly tired from the big journey and just wants to finish it. If you reduced the amount of morph tunnels a bit I think it would be perfect but that's just me.

In the end, I enjoyed this hack very much and liked many of the changes you did (even if I didn't mention them). I recommend this hack to everyone but only the more patient/tolerant ones should attempt a savestateless run.

[zaphod77]

It's actually pretty fair about save states and if they are needed.

The auto space jump is pretty worthless, and i do much better with manual. auto WALL jump, on the other hand is very handy.

But generally when you do die (and it's usually cuz an enemy dealt MUCH more damage then you thought it would if you aren't near a save point), you get an idea how to avoid it next time. and while save points do seem sparse at times, they are always around when you really need them (before a boss, for one).  I escaped from lava many times.  Just need to be a bit paranoid about filling up when given the chance.  I got all the way up to draygon and won, and didn't save state at all, and have made up my mind not to. I might need to relent to 100% the hack (some of those shinespark and morph ball puzzles just seem insane), but i'm not trying for that yet.

I've never found a sandfall that let me jump against it more than once, which is how it's supposed to work.

Yeah the morph ball mazes are annoying, especially the ones that require perfectly timed spring ball jumps and bombs. you couldn't unmorph because you hadn't passed a "turn on unmorph" trigger.

[zaphod77]

Ok, I am completely stuck.

I've gotten mssiles, morph ball, charge beam, wave beam, spazer, grapple beam, power bombs, high jump, spce jump, screw attack, wall jump.

mising plsma beam.

killed bomb torizo, spore spawn, kraid, crocomire, botwoon, dragon. mmissing golden torizo and ridley.

Even though not all guardians are secured, the hint system is directing me to tourian.  i cannot enter ridley's hideout, the door is grey. i think my save may be glitched.


Ok, finally found the way in, and got the last two boses and plasmabeam. still can't get the last two guardians. one in maridia and one in crateria. while a;; the doors in norfair are open now, the only new path elsewhere didn't get me mich.  where's the darn hints? It still says tourian.

[CaRmAgE]

Ok, finally found the way in, and got the last two boses and plasmabeam. still can't get the last two guardians. one in maridia and one in crateria. while a;; the doors in norfair are open now, the only new path elsewhere didn't get me mich.  where's the darn hints? It still says tourian.

[spoiler=Maridia]Not sure which one you're missing, but since you just beat Ridley, check the west side for a tube that just broke.[/spoiler]

[spoiler=Crateria]You're most likely missing the eastern one. Go to the part of the rightmost shaft that is right below a morph ball tunnel requiring Super Missiles.  Check the right side for another morph ball tunnel.[/spoiler]

[Steyiak]

where's the darn hints? It still says tourian.

I am not sure if the hint system glitched for you for whatever reason, but if it didn't you should see black chozo heads on the map (with hints on). Those are the guardians.

[zaphod77]

It did show the guardians, but didn't really give any clue on how to get them.

Anyway, i finally got into tourian, and got pwned by the feeding pits because i DIDN'T HAVE BEAM COMBO because i forgot that was a thing and thought beams couldn't be combined ever.

Without beam combo the feeding pits are frigging IMPOSSIBLE. (then you need CHARGE shots to freeze the metroids)

Seph, PLEASE put a grey door that stops yo form reaching the first breeding pit if you do not have that beam combo, or place an emergency pickup?

[CaRmAgE]

Without beam combo the feeding pits are frigging IMPOSSIBLE. (then you need CHARGE shots to freeze the metroids)

Seph, PLEASE put a grey door that stops yo form reaching the first breeding pit if you do not have that beam combo, or place an emergency pickup?

If he did that, it would be impossible to beat the EPB challenge, because you can't access the Beam Combo during the challenge.

[spoiler=Alternate method]Plus, you don't necessarily need the Beam Combo.  Use Ice SB to freeze the Metroids for the normal amount of time.[/spoiler]

[zaphod77]

what is "Ice SB"?  Only thing that worked for me before i got beam combo was fully charged ice beam, and there's not enough time to freeze all three.

[CaRmAgE]

what is "Ice SB"?

Sorry, I meant SBA (I think it means "special beam attack").  If you don't know what that is...

Only equip Charge Beam and Ice Beam, then charge the Ice Beam while Power Bombs are equipped.  Four rotating ice crystals will spawn around Samus at the cost of a Power Bomb.  The Metroids will freeze the normal amount of time if hit by one, but the crystals are only used once, and they can be wasted on the same Metroid, so you would have to be careful when using it.

There are SBAs for the other three beams, but Ice and Wave are the most useful.  (BTW, it's not specific to this hack; it's in vanilla SM as well.)

Only thing that worked for me before i got beam combo was fully charged ice beam, and there's not enough time to freeze all three.

[spoiler]You're suppose to stun all three at once with bombs, then freeze/missile them one at a time.[/spoiler]
But if you use the Ice SBA, you can get away with freezing all three at once.

[zaphod77]

Oh, Special Charge Beam Attack.

Yeah, that might work. MUCH easier to just get the Beam Combo, though.  DO wish the game made some effort to tell me i needed it. :)

BTW, i found a pace in Lower norfair that seems to be purely a deathtrap this spot gives an earthquake, and slowly rising acid, and is entered from the right.  when you run to the end, the chozo is empty, and the x ray scope shows nothing.  there's nowhere to build up a cahrge for a shinespark either.  Did I miss something, or was that a total troll move?

BTW. challenge fo TASers. No Damage Run. :)

[CaRmAgE]

BTW, i found a pace in Lower norfair that seems to be purely a deathtrap this spot gives an earthquake, and slowly rising acid, and is entered from the right.  when you run to the end, the chozo is empty, and the x ray scope shows nothing.  there's nowhere to build up a cahrge for a shinespark either.  Did I miss something, or was that a total troll move?

[spoiler=2 Secrets]The first is at the entrance.  Look for a hidden morph ball tunnel (I don't think it shows up on X-Ray).  The second requires shinesparking upward on the Chozo Statue's hands.  You build the charge at the entrance, jump over the middle obstacle, then shinespark into the slope just to get over there with a charge.[/spoiler]