Super Metroid Subversion

[MetroidPlayer]

Amazing hack. Quick question, out of curiosity.

[spoiler]Is it possible to do all challenges in a single run, regardless of the difficulty?[/spoiler]

[TestRunner]

Amazing hack. Quick question, out of curiosity.

[spoiler]Is it possible to do all challenges in a single run, regardless of the difficulty?[/spoiler]

No, most cannot be done at the same time. For instance, [spoiler]100% and low%[/spoiler] obviously cannot be done at the same time. There are some that can though. Also as a warning, they don't count in Easy mode.

I played this expecting a fun time and it subverted my expectations. It has some nice exploration in parts but navigation never really flows well. Very few areas feel good to search through, a lot of areas suffer both from their size and being so disconnected. Some of the new upgrades are nice but space jump upgrades just felt like padding and shared ammo pools just make missiles even more useless in comparison. Dark Visor was neat, but used so sparingly it felt like it was only created to flex some new feature.
All of the bosses were just made slightly more annoying, and Phantoon's the only one that really felt like it had a mechanic added to it.

i saw some people bitching about crocomire. like what?  you [spoiler]drop in the room and immediately get speeed booster. when you push the croc to the place where it should fall you see a very obvious speed booster icon in the ground bricks. and its still not obvious?[/spoiler]

You need to go to the left to even see Speed Booster, when there's normally no reason to ever go to the left before beating Crocomire. You need to either do badly enough to get pushed back, push Crocomire to the edge to see the speedbooster blocks that stop you from beating it the normal way, open the log during a boss fight for no reason, or randomly decide to go to the left. Crocomire is generally a pushover so it's easy to assume the arena was made longer to make it more of a challenge, rather than it being any different mechanically.

I wasn't really planning on responding to this but whatever here we go. I assume you don't like the areas being too small? That's personal opinion obviously, but the idea was to provide variety and not over do any single idea until it is over exhausted. I'm not sure I understand the disconnected bit. Yes a couple areas are fairly remote by design, but out of the 20+ areas, almost every area connects to at least 3 other areas, making a highly interconnected web. I could've replaced space jump with more ammo packs if you preferred that, but that seems a bit of a downgrade in experience. Also consider that you get SJ much earlier in the game, so it made sense to give a weaker version that is strong at the end. Missile packs are actually quite a bit better than vanilla. Missiles are by far the best damage dealing almost twice the damage as supers, but at the cost of a little DPS. There's a lot of options in how ammo is spent so it really depends on what you are fighting, and shared ammo also prevents issues where PBs run out and you need to find a enemy that drops PBs specifically. The shared ammo also means that the missile packs which are normally pretty useless in every metroid game have significant value (until late game when your beams are strong). I think dark visor could have had more uses, but it's still quite relevant for about a 1/3 of the game time, which I think is a pretty reasonable usage rate. Also I wanted people to see the game's normal colors so having to run around with the visor on at all times would hurt the experience anyways, so I didn't want to overdo its usage. In fact that is why some areas actually straight up discourage its usage. I don't understand this crocomire complaint since you list several ways to solve the fight. Another common method is just running out of ammo, and needing to look around, which I think is what I see most people do. It's a surprising twist. If it were obvious then that would kinda ruin the fun.

[drb]

You need to go to the left to even see Speed Booster, when there's normally no reason to ever go to the left before beating Crocomire. You need to either do badly enough to get pushed back, push Crocomire to the edge to see the speedbooster blocks that stop you from beating it the normal way, open the log during a boss fight for no reason, or randomly decide to go to the left. Crocomire is generally a pushover so it's easy to assume the arena was made longer to make it more of a challenge, rather than it being any different mechanically.

huh, i guess people have streamlined SM so much  that the notion of checking the a new room when you get to it doesn't occur to them because they know there is normally nothing there
so funnily someone who's only played SM like once or twice wouldn't be so hard-wired to that routine.
so what i get from this is its not the game's issue but rather it being a hack of a game that people have streamlined to the point of becoming inflexible

I read the intent behind the three modded mini/bosses as forcing the player into a stalemate until the "New Log" notification arrives to clue them in on how to proceed, adding real-time functionality to the log book (as opposed to merely world-building and mission tracking).  I thought it was a nice way to add some interesting wrinkles to the boss battles on a first playthrough, as they tend to get pretty stale when you play a ton of hacks.  YMMV, I guess?  I mean, you ARE locked in to the Croco room, and the rooms leading up to it foreshadowed the Speed Booster, so it *should* be pretty obvious after seeing the hint tile and getting the log entry...

[DemICE]

so im giving the [spoiler]2nd quest a go and... is it really the intention for the player to have to use the spring ball glitch to progress throughthe flooded pirate lab? or is there something i've been missing? I've progressed long past that point by now but this question still lingered in my head.  [/spoiler]  Also yeah the mode is funny in general and there are some signs like the above that say that its not meant for me but im just going till i can't anymore.

[TestRunner]

so im giving the [spoiler]2nd quest a go and... is it really the intention for the player to have to use the spring ball glitch to progress throughthe flooded pirate lab? or is there something i've been missing? I've progressed long past that point by now but this question still lingered in my head.  [/spoiler]  Also yeah the mode is funny in general and there are some signs like the above that say that its not meant for me but im just going till i can't anymore.

There's another method [spoiler]gravity jump. But that being said, 2nd quest requires a some intermediate tech like that and is quite a bit harder. No clips are expected to be used.[/spoiler]

[DonnyDonovan]

Isn't that skill required in the main game?  Or did I do something out of intended sequence?

[amoeba]

No speed tech or glitches are needed to beat the game 100% in normal mode. The only "extra" thing you need is shinesparking.

[DemICE]

so im giving the [spoiler]2nd quest a go and... is it really the intention for the player to have to use the spring ball glitch to progress throughthe flooded pirate lab? or is there something i've been missing? I've progressed long past that point by now but this question still lingered in my head.  [/spoiler]  Also yeah the mode is funny in general and there are some signs like the above that say that its not meant for me but im just going till i can't anymore.

There's another method [spoiler]gravity jump. But that being said, 2nd quest requires a some intermediate tech like that and is quite a bit harder. No clips are expected to be used.[/spoiler]

i guess i'm a bit out of the loop because theres a distinction in my head between "tech"  and  "Glitches",  despite playing metroid games for some years. I think im decent enough at the game using the intended features and some of the "less glitch-y" ones like infinite bomb jumping and single wall jumping. I guess i never actually bothered to watch people playing to see all these. Actually had to google for the spring ball jump  (and the gravity jump now). At least i managed to reach the Aqua Suit and it feels like an accomplishment so there's that.

But hey if thats how the community has grown to view these and are using them with impunity, I can't really present my situation as negative criticism, since apparently I'm the outlier.

[TestRunner]

so im giving the [spoiler]2nd quest a go and... is it really the intention for the player to have to use the spring ball glitch to progress throughthe flooded pirate lab? or is there something i've been missing? I've progressed long past that point by now but this question still lingered in my head.  [/spoiler]  Also yeah the mode is funny in general and there are some signs like the above that say that its not meant for me but im just going till i can't anymore.

There's another method [spoiler]gravity jump. But that being said, 2nd quest requires a some intermediate tech like that and is quite a bit harder. No clips are expected to be used.[/spoiler]

i guess i'm a bit out of the loop because theres a distinction in my head between "tech"  and  "Glitches",  despite playing metroid games for some years. I think im decent enough at the game using the intended features and some of the "less glitch-y" ones like infinite bomb jumping and single wall jumping. I guess i never actually bothered to watch people playing to see all these. Actually had to google for the spring ball jump  (and the gravity jump now). At least i managed to reach the Aqua Suit and it feels like an accomplishment so there's that.

But hey if thats how the community has grown to view these and are using them with impunity, I can't really present my situation as negative criticism, since apparently I'm the outlier.

Whether it's a "tech" or "glitch" isn't particularly relevant tbh. The main game doesn't require any of this stuff, and it was by design aimed to be completable by any novice or casual Super Metroid player. The challenge mode you are playing is just that, a challenge. It will require some trickier stuff that a novice player may not know. That being said, if you were able to get to Aqua Suit, then I believe you're past the main stuff stuff that you might be considering a tech/glitch. There's more challenge ahead of course.

[DemICE]

That being said, if you were able to get to Aqua Suit, then I believe you're past the main stuff stuff that you might be considering a tech/glitch. There's more challenge ahead of course.

You were right, it was more fun afterwards. I ended up beating it but some parts took me hours worth of attempts,  like the infinite bomb jump to reach the west entrance of the cargo rail, and oh boy that yolo run through the lava to reach the [spoiler]speedbooster[/spoiler] and come out alive was an experience.

The fact that the world map was designed to accomodate two gamemodes where different order of powerup acquisition creates entirely different routes was so fascinating to me.

[generalm13]

Played through Subversion and i enjoyed it immensly! i loved all the new mechanics and how you changed the bosses and items and their uses!

[makazuwr32]

and i am stuck in 2nd quest mode.
[spoiler=Current situation]Currently i have:
Ice Beam
Wave Beam
Plasma Beam
Aqua Suit
Vatia Suit
Morph Ball
Bombs
Speed ball
Screw attack
Gravity Boots
Dark Visor
X-Ray Visor
Missiles
Power Bombs

170 ammo
11 e tanks
3 damage amp tanks
1 speed tank
3 space jump tanks
5 refill tanks

And have access to both sides of reactor control room thus can turn it on/off.

Known locations of items:
Charge beam - can be obtained but can't escape since i need grapple.
Metroid suit - To get into room i need supers.

Do not know locations of:
Supers
Grapple beam
Hi jump
Space jump
Hyper charge
Speed booster
Spazer

Can't go to the east of pirate lab (neither through top nor through bottom since it is locked behind supers or speed.
Can't go to space station since upper part is locked behind grapple.
Can't go to X-Ray room since item is locked behind grapple again.
Can't go after power bombs location since it is locked behind hyper beam/speed booster/supers.
Can't go to island since i need there speed booster, supers, space jump at very least.[/spoiler]

Any hints?

[TestRunner]

and i am stuck in 2nd quest mode.
[spoiler=Current situation]Currently i have:
Ice Beam
Wave Beam
Plasma Beam
Aqua Suit
Vatia Suit
Morph Ball
Bombs
Speed ball
Screw attack
Gravity Boots
Dark Visor
X-Ray Visor
Missiles
Power Bombs

170 ammo
11 e tanks
3 damage amp tanks
1 speed tank
3 space jump tanks
5 refill tanks

And have access to both sides of reactor control room thus can turn it on/off.

Known locations of items:
Charge beam - can be obtained but can't escape since i need grapple.
Metroid suit - To get into room i need supers.

Do not know locations of:
Supers
Grapple beam
Hi jump
Space jump
Hyper charge
Speed booster
Spazer

Can't go to the east of pirate lab (neither through top nor through bottom since it is locked behind supers or speed.
Can't go to space station since upper part is locked behind grapple.
Can't go to X-Ray room since item is locked behind grapple again.
Can't go after power bombs location since it is locked behind hyper beam/speed booster/supers.
Can't go to island since i need there speed booster, supers, space jump at very least.[/spoiler]

Any hints?

One of those locations you listed as unreachable is reachable: [spoiler]The location is the power bomb location[/spoiler]
If you want a hint on to get there: [spoiler]checkout the place you said needs speedboost. There's a way through that room without it.[/spoiler]

[makazuwr32]

and i am stuck in 2nd quest mode.
[spoiler=Current situation]Currently i have:
Ice Beam
Wave Beam
Plasma Beam
Aqua Suit
Vatia Suit
Morph Ball
Bombs
Speed ball
Screw attack
Gravity Boots
Dark Visor
X-Ray Visor
Missiles
Power Bombs

170 ammo
11 e tanks
3 damage amp tanks
1 speed tank
3 space jump tanks
5 refill tanks

And have access to both sides of reactor control room thus can turn it on/off.

Known locations of items:
Charge beam - can be obtained but can't escape since i need grapple.
Metroid suit - To get into room i need supers.

Do not know locations of:
Supers
Grapple beam
Hi jump
Space jump
Hyper charge
Speed booster
Spazer

Can't go to the east of pirate lab (neither through top nor through bottom since it is locked behind supers or speed.
Can't go to space station since upper part is locked behind grapple.
Can't go to X-Ray room since item is locked behind grapple again.
Can't go after power bombs location since it is locked behind hyper beam/speed booster/supers.
Can't go to island since i need there speed booster, supers, space jump at very least.[/spoiler]

Any hints?

One of those locations you listed as unreachable is reachable: [spoiler]The location is the power bomb location[/spoiler]
If you want a hint on to get there: [spoiler]checkout the place you said needs speedboost. There's a way through that room without it.[/spoiler]

Thanks for the hint.
Now need to survive the lava run...

[spoiler]1199 Hp for lava run is enough or not? It seems that it is max hp i could collect right now.
When i reach room with power bomb i have less than 300 hp which is not enough to even reach the item...[/spoiler]

Upd.:
Finally got it. that was really a HELL RUN.

[H A M]

what's a second quest

[drb]

Finally got it. that was really a HELL RUN.

The fact that the map was designed to support two sets of item placements is one of the most impressive aspects of this hack, but the paths to and from the speed booster is my one minor criticism.  If the 2nd quest is a challenge to understand how the map works without certain items, the other breakable blocks in that speed block room that the player probably isn't aware of coming out of the first quest feel a little bit cheap to me.  And the way I had handled doors and the generator before committing to the dive left me with no choice but to farm up and go back through it AGAIN after getting speed.  So a bit of free/unsolicited advice for anyone attempting:

[spoiler]
Once you find Varia, take a second to turn the generator back on, and/or at least open the red door in the Verdite Mine elevator room, BEFORE heading to speed booster.
[/spoiler]

what's a second quest

Ask the animals.

[TestRunner]

The fact that the map was designed to support two sets of item placements is one of the most amazing aspects of this hack, but the paths to and from the speed booster is my one minor criticism.  If the 2nd quest is a challenge to understand how the map works without certain items, the other breakable blocks in that speed block room that the player probably isn't aware of coming out of the first quest feel a little bit cheap to me.  And the way I had handled doors and the generator before committing to the dive left me with no choice but to farm up and go back through it AGAIN after getting speed.

[spoiler]The hidden breakable blocks in the path to speedboost is definitely a fair complaint. I probably could have implemented that in a more natural way that let people discover that on their first go through. Part of the reason I didn't was because there are hidden destructible blocks like that in other places that weren't really a problem to discover. But I think that spot is mainly problematic because the player isn't exactly encouraged to look around there. The only real "hint" at that point is eliminating the other locations that are definitely unreachable.

I'm not sure why you had to do a second dive. Even if you don't open any doors you can get back mostly normally, it just is a long way around. Specifically you go up and out through the mines to spore and then all the way back up to the peaks and then back down to the generator. It's a pretty long trek if you didn't open the shortcut. That's of course as you said if you left the power off. If the power was on when you did the dive you don't need to go back at that point.

I wish I could've not have that door in the mine elevator room but if I didn't then people could skip the route through the peaks early on. Wasn't really sure else I could handle that unfortunately.
[/spoiler]

[drb]

The fact that the map was designed to support two sets of item placements is one of the most amazing aspects of this hack, but the paths to and from the speed booster is my one minor criticism.  If the 2nd quest is a challenge to understand how the map works without certain items, the other breakable blocks in that speed block room that the player probably isn't aware of coming out of the first quest feel a little bit cheap to me.  And the way I had handled doors and the generator before committing to the dive left me with no choice but to farm up and go back through it AGAIN after getting speed.

[spoiler]The hidden breakable blocks in the path to speedboost is definitely a fair complaint. I probably could have implemented that in a more natural way that let people discover that on their first go through. Part of the reason I didn't was because there are hidden destructible blocks like that in other places that weren't really a problem to discover. But I think that spot is mainly problematic because the player isn't exactly encouraged to look around there. The only real "hint" at that point is eliminating the other locations that are definitely unreachable.

I'm not sure why you had to do a second dive. Even if you don't open any doors you can get back mostly normally, it just is a long way around. Specifically you go up and out through the mines to spore and then all the way back up to the peaks and then back down to the generator. It's a pretty long trek if you didn't open the shortcut. That's of course as you said if you left the power off. If the power was on when you did the dive you don't need to go back at that point.

I wish I could've not have that door in the mine elevator room but if I didn't then people could skip the route through the peaks early on. Wasn't really sure else I could handle that unfortunately.
[/spoiler]

Regardless, the critique is that the path difficulty changes significantly based on the seemingly arbitrary decision to turn the generator on before going to Speed Booster, especially since it's easy for the player to be unaware of the green door blocking the Mines elevator.  I get it - wanna make an omelette, gotta break some eggs, but holy cow was I steamed when I ran into that door.

[H A M]

this patch fixes the space port's palette not loading correctly in the hex map when transitioning from square map to hex map when in an area that isn't the space port (apply to unheadered subversion 1.2 rom)

[DonnyDonovan]

Love this game.  Some random thoughts during a second playthrough.  I'll include a spolier tag although I don't think it's really necessary. 

[spoiler]Get rid of the "metroid suit vulnerable to cold" feature.  It's a pain to have to switch it off in like 10 rooms down by the switches.  It doesn't add any challenge, it's just a pain.
Same thing with spazer blocks.  Make them vulnerable to plasma too somehow.  When I'm going back and getting 100% it's a pain to have to occasionally switch off plasma.  Also, I'd hint at the island area better somehow.  I totally missed it on my first playthrough.  It's massive and SOOO easy to miss.   Finally, I am still getting the cipher keys and I'm finding some of the gate puzzles more frustrating than fun given the difficulty of the hack up until now (I'm on Normal).  Edit: After finishing it, I'm lukewarm on the entire Island area.  The rest of the hack all flows together so perfectly.  The island is a sprawling series of puzzles where you have to leave and reset the room 10 times before you crack it.  It doesn't flow at all the way the rest of the game does.
I'm not a fan.   The game is awesome, but I'm lukewarm on this entire, huge area.[/spoiler]

Other than that it's an all-time great game.

[drb]

Love this game.  Some random thoughts during a second playthrough.  I'll include a spolier tag although I don't think it's really necessary. 

[spoiler]Get rid of the "metroid suit vulnerable to cold" feature.  It's a pain to have to switch it off in like 10 rooms down by the switches.  It doesn't add any challenge, it's just a pain.
Same thing with spazer blocks.  Make them vulnerable to plasma too somehow.  When I'm going back and getting 100% it's a pain to have to occasionally switch off plasma.  Also, I'd hint at the island area better somehow.  I totally missed it on my first playthrough.  It's massive and SOOO easy to miss.   Finally, I am still getting the cipher keys and I'm finding some of the gate puzzles more frustrating than fun given the difficulty of the hack up until now (I'm on Normal).  Edit: After finishing it, I'm lukewarm on the entire Island area.  The rest of the hack all flows together so perfectly.  The island is a sprawling series of puzzles where you have to leave and reset the room 10 times before you crack it.  It doesn't flow at all the way the rest of the game does.
I'm not a fan.   The game is awesome, but I'm lukewarm on this entire, huge area.[/spoiler]

Other than that it's an all-time great game.

Vulnerability to cold takes on a whole new meaning in a couple of the challenges - Varia skip and low% notably.  There's always easy mode if you'd rather not deal with it; not like it's too easy compared to normal.  Right there with you on the rest though - unless I'm on a 100% run I'm skipping the island.

[UDtheAesir]

Might as well spoiler the two things I have in mind after a fair bit of poking around.

[spoiler]After saving the animals, there's a notif saying "the demo reel reveals the hidden green path," any hints about that? Been watching the demos and couldn't find anything about that.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]On that note, where's the "Odd Chamber" room I saw in the demos? Is that a demo-only thing?[/spoiler]

[drb]

Might as well spoiler the two things I have in mind after a fair bit of poking around.

[spoiler]After saving the animals, there's a notif saying "the demo reel reveals the hidden green path," any hints about that? Been watching the demos and couldn't find anything about that.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]On that note, where's the "Odd Chamber" room I saw in the demos? Is that a demo-only thing?[/spoiler]

They're related.  Once you find the hidden green path you'll be one step closer to finding the Odd Chamber.

[spoiler=the hidden green path]Literal translation: the demo reel reveals something that's green, and hidden in-game.  What's commonly occurring and green in Super Metroid?[/spoiler]

[spoiler=direct answer] Look for a super missile door in the demo reel, and shoot one at the wall where it would be in-game.[/spoiler]

[UDtheAesir]

2nd quest's pretty interesting what with some of the items being swapped around. For the time being looks like I'm stuck since I'm crap at infinite bomb jumping. Got missiles, morphball, bombs, grav boots, speedball, power bombs, x-ray scope, screw attack, aqua suit, ice and wave beams. The mini-hell run to get to the Turbid Passage was fun. Oh, 8 e-tanks and 3 reserves.

[altoiddealer]

Completed the normal game with 99%, in 12 hours lol

I have questions regarding secret stuff

[spoiler]Where is the hint regarding the demo reel?

I read about it here... so I see the green door in the demo reel... but scoured Life Temple and cannot find that room.  Is it only accessible in Hard mode?

What is different in Hard mode?

Does completing all the challenges unlock something?
[/spoiler]