Petition to revamp the Room of The Week Contest

[RealRed]

Alright, so I think we can all generally agree that, while cool originally, Room of The Week is frail over the years.
We typically have the same three people posting every week, and its pretty much become trolling grounds for Alisa Orlova and Grimlock.
The Room of the Week contest doesn't really promote the growth of romhackers outside of the one focus that is tile placement. It's essentially an ongoing group critique, which is great, but everyone is a goddamn coward about what sort of content can be put up for review.

There are a lot more that needs to be put into a hack to make it all around competent. Perhaps you've made 263 brand new rooms that are beautifully detailed, but they're all filled with water and/or impossible enemies, and aren't fun to play. Nobody likes the hack... but it won a lot of spots in ROTW because the water and impossible enemies weren't problems then because they weren't relevant!
I understand that there's no truly easy way to include all of that sort of information using SMILE's level to bitmap, but that just brings up another issue.. that that's the only way people are allowed to express their efforts in the contest. That's like making only part of a room, leaving several skeletoned/untouched scrolls, and then posting in in ROTW. You're missing a lot of what's really going on in a room.
To push the issue further, there's a lot more that goes into making a hack. Tilemaps, assembly, graphics, mapping, sequence... We don't have a place to show, share, and grow in using any of those aspects- not in a competitive way, at least.

Why not?
The creation/contribution of things that aren't new levels are equally important. Competing in new assembly or new graphics would be great for the community, as doing so would boost morale or give you a push to do better in said subject. Either way, it's a win.
Now, a few concerns come to mind with having a "content of the week" contest.

• Person A contributes a youtube video of ASM. Person B contributes a room. Person A wins by default.

Not necessarily. It's a measure of time spent on said project. A new weapon type is exciting, but so is an beautifully architecturally crafted new area. It's up to voters to decide what they like more, and it's up to the contributor to put a focused effort in the work they're putting up.

• People can post a huge amount of work at once and totally outshine everybody else!

So what? That already happens in RoTW. Look at black falcon's or Quote58's rooms with totally new graphics. More effort outshines less effort. It's the contributors choice how much they want to put in.

• We have standards in place so that different things that people put up can be measured properly.

Sure. That makes sense, but it can't hurt to open our minds. I think we can ask ourselves based on what we've seen and determine what we think is the most compelling contribution to the game said thing was made for. It's not that hard.

Instead of just level-to-bitmap images generated from smile, screenshots, videos, .gifs, quickmet patches, or asm files (and these are just quick examples) come to mind. How fucking cool would it be if voters were given the opportunity to experience the content being posted? I know the existing rules don't prevent additional content being provided alongside rooms, but contributors shouldn't be limited by how they can contribute at all. Let them think outside the box regarding how they present their work in the best way they see fit.

Anyway, I think RoTW could be a lot more relevant and active than it is now. Tell me what you think.

[MetroidMst]

Pretty sure the idea behind Room of the Week is to show off a room. Most of this other stuff you mention doesn't even apply to that. While there is certainly more than placing tiles involved with a making a hack, a contest about a "Room" is not the appropriate place for a lot of this.

That being said, there is a place where most of this fits right in, and that is actually the same board. Currently, it has only been used for completable hacks in some manor. But if you want to try something different (Best custom boss contest? Most rainbow-y bubbles contest? Intense heat run design contest?) then sponsor a new contest based on that. If you think it might be interesting to see the results, others might agree, and then we might get a few things showcased that way.

The contest board has been more than just RotW for a long time, and it could be used more thoroughly to fit this exact thing.

[Zhs2]

For one thing, RotW isn't a(n entire) hack. For another, the entire concept of RotW is just that: a room of the week. That's not to say the contest itself is inherently a good or a bad thing (and I believe the consensus is that it's bad because people often tend to treat it like it's a real contest and thus you must stand up to somebody else or be forgotten) but it is its own culture and its purpose of feedback for rooms with legitimate level and graphic design (barring enemies, FX1, liquids, etc. but people can specify these things) are still valid. What you propose is possibly grounds for a second ongoing contest, like Content of the Month, but who wants to design and maintain such a thing...?

Also, you forgot Hawntah.

[Hawntah]

interesting stuff

You should just forget about it, it's never going to happen. Not on here anyway.

Pretty sure the idea behind Room of the Week is to show off a room. Most of this other stuff you mention doesn't even apply to that. While there is certainly more than placing tiles involved with a making a hack, a contest about a "Room" is not the appropriate place for a lot of this.

The thing is, a room is so much more than just tile placement, yet this contest only compares that one narrow aspect of the rooms submitted and ignores all others. It doesn't deserve to be called "Room" of the Week.

Also, you forgot Hawntah.

When was the last time I posted a room in RotW? :pwuh:

[Vismund Cygnus]

I can concede to many of your points Bloodsonic, and I've been pretty vocal about my opinion on the need to change the format from weekly to (at least) bi-weekly to improve the quality of submissions.
In its current state, Room of the Week is indeed getting roughly 2-3 submissions a week, usually with one or two "okay" rooms and the rest being pretty junky/samey as usual. I'm guilty as hell of entering just to bolster numbers, as seen by like 70% of my submissions. And don't go saying it's just a "slow week", we're talking half of 2013 and about 75-90% of 2014 having a max of 3 entries in any given week (plus many weeks rolling over due to lack of submissions).
I quite like the idea of showing off more than just the "bare bones" of rooms and could definitely get behind displaying FX1, enemies, glows, any other sort of added room effect (provided it does in fact exist in-game (which you may need to prove for some things (like glows))).
The only issues I see are that for one, the community on a whole have never wanted the format to change. I remember the idea of changing it to a bi-weekly format was taken rather negatively.
The second problem being how does one compare two completely different things with a poll? Given how the system currently works as a basis, we get what, 12-20 votes each week, yet only have 5-10 messages explaining why x is better than y, which is okay for rooms (in general it's a clear consensus for very obvious reasons), but the idea of comparing rooms and ASM, at least to me, is like comparing swimming to chess (terrible analogy but y'know).

I quite like the idea of revamping Room of the Week, but I still think it should stay as that, Room of the Week.
If, however, there's enough community interest, I'd be more than happy to help set up/maintain a second contest reserved for ASM, areas, graphics, hex(?), etc. I like the sounds of it but I don't see it being compared to rooms.

I may edit this later when I think of more stuff.

[Jiffy]

Room of the Week should still stay Room of the Week, like Vismund says. Though, I think the voting period should be changed to Weekends, and the submitting period be changed to the Weekdays. Usually with the voting, we see the Monday and Tuesday have many people voting, and the rest of the week, nobody is posting feedback or votes. Just a thought.

[Alisa Orlova]

...pretty much become trolling grounds for Alisa Orlova...

Well, i don't agree with it, because my English is too poor, and I just can't "trolling" anyone. I guess you're one of those who don't like my feedback because i am a harsh true teller (true or not - it's a struggle of opinions). If you do not agree with me, you can click on my "profile", open "show posts" then find my "trolling posts in ROTW" and click on "Report to moderator". This is much better than just to be unfounded.


Person A contributes a youtube video of ASM. Person B contributes a room. Person A wins by default.
To make a "correct" choice between .gifs and ASM people must have sufficient competence. For example you made insanely difficult code, but people just have no idea how it was hard for you. Good code and nice room it's too different things and we can't just put them together and compare. That exactly better: "warm ball or red ball?"

People can post a huge amount of work at once and totally outshine everybody else!
Quantity turns into quality... Really? I think more rooms = less quality. SPAM, spam, spam. And of course spikes is everywhere. Just for example, how many weeks in a row you can post two or more good rooms at once? Sometimes we just have no enough rooms to start a competition and sir.Vismund initiates HU.

We have standards in place so that different things that people put up can be measured properly.
Yes, i like it, but i don't approve it. I already have my table, and i will vote how exactly i want it and not otherwise. But i think "feedback standard" it's a good idea.

[RealRed]

Pretty sure the idea behind Room of the Week is to show off a room. Most of this other stuff you mention doesn't even apply to that. While there is certainly more than placing tiles involved with a making a hack, a contest about a "Room" is not the appropriate place for a lot of this.

The thing is, a room is so much more than just tile placement, yet this contest only compares that one narrow aspect of the rooms submitted and ignores all others. It doesn't deserve to be called "Room" of the Week.

My biggest issue with the contest as it stands.

Even if nobody can agree that other types of content should be put up, fuckall is included in the "rooms" people put up currently. I got torn down bigtime by Quote58's big moderator badge when I tried to do anything different.
I mean, Vismund is pretty aware that RoTW has lost a lot of steam. If everyone really figures that the way the contest is currently with a maximum of 2-3 pseudoquality submissions is the best way to go, then I'll just be glad I said what I felt. I just don't see why we can't try new things to try to make the contest more active/valuable and make it feel less restrictive.

...pretty much become trolling grounds for Alisa Orlova...

Well, i don't agree with it, because my English is too poor, and I just can't "trolling" anyone. I guess you're one of those who don't like my feedback because i am a harsh true teller (true or not - it's a struggle of opinions).

I definitely wouldn't call it a struggle of opinions when you're bumping heads with grimlock over unrelated [to the actual contest] photoshopped images.

People can post a huge amount of work at once and totally outshine everybody else!
Quantity turns into quality... Really? I think more rooms = less quality. SPAM, spam, spam. And of course spikes is everywhere. Just for example, how many weeks in a row you can post two or more good rooms at once? Sometimes we just have no enough rooms to start a competition and sir.Vismund initiates HU.

Well, my bullet points are sample arguements I figured I'd get. What I mean by this one is that people could spend months and months working on a highly detailed entire area. High quality work, and then they posted it and auto-won. People kind of already do this by crafting entire tilesets and then making vivid rooms out of them to post.

We have standards in place so that different things that people put up can be measured properly.
Yes, i like it, but i don't approve it. I already have my table, and i will vote how exactly i want it and not otherwise. But i think "feedback standard" it's a good idea.

Again, another arguement I figured I'd get. Standards are what make the contest shitty. "you must post this way or you simply don't get in". It's not helping people think creatively, it's oppressing that.

[Jordan5]

Even if nobody can agree that other types of content should be put up, fuckall is included in the "rooms" people put up currently. I got torn down bigtime by Quote58's big moderator badge when I tried to do anything different.

It wasn't the fact that you tried to do something different, it was the way you acted. You clearly disregarded the rules instead of asking about them changing, then when you were called out for it you lost your shit and said that everyone else who enters aren't making real hacks, and that yours wasn't static (nice word choice seeing as you chose to submit a static screenshot and nothing else :colonrightv:). Next time, try to follow what others have done and submit additional information for us so we can see everything about the room that you want to portray. If the majority of the people here didn't like RotW and its rules, it wouldn't still be going, try to realise that. I think if you want RotW to be different to what it is now, you'd be better off with a separate competition, as people like RotW.

[snarfblam]

You should just forget about it, it's never going to happen. Not on here anyway.

You clearly disregarded the rules instead of asking about them changing, then when you were called out for it you lost your shit and said that everyone else who enters aren't making real hacks

That isn't constructive.

I'm all for discussing RotW format and the possibility of other contests, but you guys insist on dismissing each other at best and insulting each other the rest of the time. State your opinion, give supporting arguments, and stop telling other people that they are wrong or dumb.

The reason the RotW format is the way it is is because people keep voting to keep it that way. If people can reach a consensus as far any changes that will improve RotW, then we can go that route. Nominate some ideas, put them up for a vote or something.

[Jordan5]

Nominate some ideas, put them up for a vote or something.

That's what I am saying, but up until this topic people tended just to get annoyed and shitpost in RotW, when they should've done something more active than that. I'm also saying that RotW has survived all that, thus a radical change is unlikely, but a different competition alongside it is not.

[Lunaria]

Honestly I stopped caring about RotW a long time ago, since I personally gave up trying to get people to actually bloody care about the level design. More often than not I see people who focus on commenting on the visuals unless there is something blindly obvious that is a problem with the room. I see seldom, if ever, anyone giving a damn about the design and flow of the room as it would be if it was played. (Which arguably can be hard to tell since the effects and enemy layers are missing.)

Currently RotW is nothing more than an art showcase thread, in which case I say, why not just use the screenshot/video thread?
I'm with Blood on this one, no focus is actually put on what makes a room great if it was to be played, all of the focus is on the looks. And for me, I feel that everyone is just completely missing the point, you make (hopefully) these rooms to be played, not to be looked at as an out of context art piece.

[Grimlock]

I'm going to have to chime in since I was mentioned fairly early in this thread.  The first thing that I think needs to be mentioned is that there really isn't any issues between me and Alisa, it's all in good fun actually.  Secondly I wouldn't lose any sleep over never posting another Photoshoped ROTW submission, the whole point wasn't to "troll" anyone.  The point was to add a little fun for everyone involved and ultimately keep it light, maybe a laugh, or a failed attempt at one.  I don't think it's in anyone's interest to take ROTW too seriously.  Yes to a degree, people should give honest and constructive feedback but it's better for everyone if it's made to be a fun experience. 

I personally think ROTW is fine as is.  Level Design IS game art, therefore I don't see the problem with people critiquing it as such.  Yes in it's entirety there are other aspects such as flow, properly gauged challenge, exploration, player immersion, properly scaled player rewards and so on.  Each are game art in there own right but really I don't see how ROTW could survive with such a scattered approach as to expect people to critique and weight such radically different concepts (though very much related).  I think for it to continue it has to be kept simple, as it is now.  If people want feedback and kudos for awesome elements of their work in progress then they should consider keeping and maintaining a dedicated thread for their hack. 

I do agree that people should post greater detail in their ROTW posts, I have been bad about that also.  I also agree with Jeffers regarding post the new submissions during the week and vote on the weekend.

One possible idea:
Maybe creating a showcase thread for each month.  You post any accomplishment you feel particularly proud of, people can post regarding what has been submitted and vote for the top 3 showcase submissions for the month.  The winners would be put up in a thread similar to how the winners of ROTW currently are.

[Vismund Cygnus]

One possible idea:
Maybe creating a showcase thread for each month.  You post any accomplishment you feel particularly proud of, people can post regarding what has been submitted and vote for the top 3 showcase submissions for the month.  The winners would be put up in a thread similar to how the winners of ROTW currently are.

The thing is we kinda already have that. Though admittedly to have like, a "mod showcase" type thing would be pretty rad, though I feel one month wouldn't be long enough to have enough entries given the rate at which the community churns out creations.  :wink:
That said I can get behind the idea of a say, quarterly showcase thing, where the top 1-3 files of the 2-3 months, be it hacks, ASM, groovy hex tweaks, rooms (less likely given this will be separate to Room of the Whatever), as voted by the community, will be left in the first post as a Showcase.
If everyone else likes the sound of that (I still feel some changes could be made to RotW but that's a different story), I could very easily set it up, and I'd be happy to take care of it.

[Lunaria]

Allow me to draw a parallel, PZC does something similar called screenshot of the week, or simply screen of the week. Generally in this contest you're heavily encouraged to submit a screenshot from in-game rather than from the editor program. Now, this makes a lot more sense, since mostly everything in ZC is screen based, you'll have all the information. (Where as a screenshot in metroid may only show a small portion of a room, for example.)

However, it's a much better set up. By having in-game shots, you'll see exactly what the player will see in that scenario, which is way more relevant than how a room looks like in the editor. Secondly, the focus is quite clearly on the whole thing as a contest, rather than some sort of miss matched space for criticism. (That's not to say people who reply never give criticism, but it's quite obvious where the focus is.) To contrast that, here we have some sort of mismatched critique contest thing that makes little to no sense. A contest should be where you go to display something you're proud of in hopes of recognition, not an avenue for criticism. That's not to say that you can't get feedback from such a thing, you probably will, but the focus should not be on that if it's a contest.

As it stands, I'd not go to RotW either for a contest, nor critique, since the whole set up completely misses the point most of the time. I'd probably do good if we evaluated why we have this contest and what we want to get out of it.


I'd also like to point towards PZC's [ur=http://www.purezc.net/forums/index.php?showforum=239l]Challenge Accepted[/url] contest. Which is another contest they run that is way more interesting. In that people who want to enter have to make a screen that matches up with the challenges set by each one. Some times you have to re-create a screen but with more detailed visuals, other times it's specific stuff that needs to be there, etc. I find that such a contest is way more interesting, since everyone who enters have to follow the same limitations in their work, and you also have things that are somewhat similar to judge. Furthermore, as a creator you actually have be creative in figuring out how to make something good based on the limitations and goals, which is something I'd argue helps people grow as screen designers. Honestly, I'd rather see a contest like this rather than plain up anything goes. I'd also solve some of the, arguable, problem that Blood brought up; what with people submitting stuff they have worked on for months that is simply not in the same league as anything else. Since with this set-up you'd only have a week on you to make your stuff.

Oh and, their submission dropbox is not viewable, this means everything is probably a bit more fair since you'll only see the entries for the first time when voting goes live. (And both voting and submitting is a whole week!)

[Vismund Cygnus]

Crys: I like the idea and I'd certainly be down for screenshots alongside rooms.

Vismund> Let's be honest here: In about a week I'm probably going to both change RotW's format and add this other "contest" regardless of what the community says\

Then I assume you'll start updating RotW as well, yes?\

Yes, yes I will be. I apologise for my recent inactivity, a lot of shit going down IRL that I'd rather not go into detail on has been preventing me from getting on and doing stuff. Should be a lot easier these days.

[Yuki]

It would be a lot to ask, but it might not be a bad idea to require a video of the person playing the room to show how it flows. It still being a hack and having it's secrets, they don't need to show like the position of every hidden item or passage, but showing how a player would move through a room would be a great way to actually see the flow.