Main Site Updates

[Vismund Cygnus]

Well, I didn't think this would be relevant, but there you go! Here was the method I made for categorising the hacks:
[spoiler]
Overhaul - A hack that makes significant changes to level design/layout, has a huge amount of custom ASM/hex changes, and/or includes a drastic number of gameplay features not present in the original game. An overhaul may not neccessarily be a Full Hack, for example Eris or Project Base.

Full Hack - A Full Hack makes significant changes to the layout of the original game, however may be very vanilla in terms of design and hex/ASM. Full Hacks are usually quite large, taking up multiple submaps. Gameplay is generally comparable to the original game. An example of a Full Hack is Legacy.

Half Hack - Hacks that make little to no change to the layout and/or design of the original game are classed as Half Hacks. They may be stylistically different (for example YPR), but most of the door connections and gameplay remain the same.

Minihack - A minihack is a hack that is most easily defined by its short play time and/or small size. Often they will be highly different from the original Super Metroid, however they would be nowhere near as lengthy as a Full Hack. Examples of minhacks include Grand Prix and Temporus.

One-Room Hacks - Self-explanatory.
[/spoiler]
I'm still iffy about that explanation for minihacks, but it's a hard category to explain aside from in gameplay.
I do like your idea of having a "Novelty" category. I may go ahead and add that to the list.  :^_^:

[MetroidMst]

[spoiler=Long rant ahead!]I am going to shoot this idea out in the open. Defined categories for hacks are dumb.
Okay sure, it is nice to give anyone browsing the hacks page a general idea of the size and what is inside of the hack, but that can easily be done with even a pretty half-baked review system. (Which I am pretty sure is still in the works, correct me if I am wrong.)

Hacks will not just magically fit into a few categories, so either we will have to keep expanding and defining new categories as hacks keep branching into new areas and new forms, or we'll have to resort to shoehorning hacks into categories they don't fit in at all. Case in point, Eris. Currently listed as an "Overhaul" hack on the main site. But. . . What exactly does it overhaul to make it an overhaul? To borrow the definition from Vismund:

"Overhaul - A hack that makes significant changes to level design/layout, has a huge amount of custom ASM/hex changes, and/or includes a drastic number of gameplay features not present in the original game."

Okay, so Eris fits the whole making significant changes to the level design/layout. (Which, not surprisingly, most hacks do nowadays anyway.) The rest of that? Um. . . Not so much. Eris is a vanilla hack with 1 custom sound sample plugged in for one room, some Phantoon GFX, and RTanks doing things to unlock a Chozo Statue. GFX otherwise is all vanilla, physics are practically untouched, and hey, Screw Attack doesn't deal damage now! If that is a "huge amount" of changes, there should be a lot more hacks listed under overhaul.

Next point about this is, if Eris isn't an overhaul hack, what type is it? Does it fit a Minihack because it fits on one submap? That would be misleading to players browsing the hacks page, as Eris could give them upwards of 10 hours of gameplay on a first playthrough. Not exactly mini there. It certainly isn't a halfhack, since it changes the layout so much, and it can't be a fullhack if it requires it to be more than one submap. (Though Fullhack is exactly what Eris should fall under with this system, as it describes it pretty well with the exception of the submap statement.)

I'm not singling out Eris for any reason other than to demonstrate my issue with the very strange desire for most people to push hacks into very specific categories. With new hacks coming around, there would be a need to keep growing categories to properly accommodate them. And as hacks get more advanced, hacks that are now considered Overhaul hacks will no longer appear to be so, since they are no longer equal to hacks with full custom music/bosses/items/GFX/Enemies/ect. Instead, I would suggest keeping things simpler. If the hacks page(s) do indeed get updated to house reviews/recommendations, then a simple Yes/No recommendation would be the best way to describe a hack. If a hack is generally panned by players at large, the vote would reflect that, but it won't stop anyone who thinks it looks interesting from giving it a try.[/spoiler]

It would be far simple to have a few boxes to allow for all the description the hack needs, such as:

• Layout changed | Y/N
• Difficulty | Easy/Medium/Hard
• Length | Short/Medium/Long
• Recommended | Y/N

And if needed, a couple of other boxes could be added to further describe the hack. (Very similar to what RHDN does.) If a hack has custom enemies/music/GFX/whatever, have a box for it, and it is either checked or it isn't. You can fit every hack into that system without spending a bunch of time trying to needlessly define what hack fits what category. (And even then it may not really fit that category, but it was a better option than the others.) And you could probably remove the length thing as well, as difficulty and the layout being changed would have a far greater impact on a player choosing to play it over knowing how long it is.

[Quote58]

I agree with MST about most of that, and I think the box idea is a good one, considering the main site has been in need of an updated look for a long time. Maybe not a simple list anymore?
I also think the rating idea should really be a higher priority, as a simple 5 star rating system would be a great addition.
I think instead of the Recommended box, there should just be an A-list box like we have with the colour scheme. With the stars, it would be obvious if it was recommended in general or not.

[FullOfFail]

MetroidMst, the categories are always going to be imperfect, I think we just need to accept that to a certain degree. What you're suggesting here wouldn't be bad for additional info, though. There's also the practical situation of knowing what each hack is, which will take quite some time with each new feature implemented. We're up to 200 hacks on the page, or so.

As Quote mentioned, the ratings would already override that 'recommended' feature. Plus, I wouldnt really want me or anyone else to have that level of influence when deciding. I just kind of view this topic differently, I dont want it to feel like some exclusive club where you have to meet ridiculous subjective standards for your hack to be considered good. I know you werent really implying that, but it's kind of a side-effect. Hacks are reflections of our personalities, they're a mixed bag of perks and flaws.

Also, another thing regarding categories, I recently split the Demos up into it's own section. In addition, I also have a lot of DEAD/WIP hacks that have never been added.

[Quietus]

Perhaps with categorisation, we could take a leaf out of romhacking.net's book, and have a table with a number of small columns followed by the rating, and just have the changes columns ticked for the relevant change having been made?  We could even consider having the version and date like they do too.

[personitis]

MetroidMst, the categories are always going to be imperfect, I think we just need to accept that to a certain degree.

So what you're saying is despite us having the ability to (try and) easily improve a system that isn't the best at categorizing released hacks, we just leave it as is? :neutral: And another thing...

I dont want it to feel like some exclusive club where you have to meet ridiculous subjective standards for your hack to be considered good. I know you werent really implying that, but it's kind of a side-effect. Hacks are reflections of our personalities, they're a mixed bag of perks and flaws.

Doesn't that already happen? Each hack is different in its own right, sure. But its usually those that had the most work put into them that get the most attention. Take MSZM and Phazon Hack for example. They overshadow others like Stardust or Hyperion in the "work" department considering how much larger the world is and the amount of graphics that have been changed. Concerning your last sentence I quoted, if someone wanted to be recognized and part of the "unspoken exclusive club," they'd best be willing to put forth the effort to do so in the first place. How do they expect to compete otherwise?

All else, I agree with MM's message (just the only box I don't like is "layout changed"). Maybe not using those exact boxes he speaks of, but a system like such coupled with a sorting/filtration system on the main site (there I go again with that idea :eyeroll:) would make finding "The right hack for you™" a much simpler process and allow to either make things easier to sort or even, if written so, sort itself.

[FullOfFail]

This is just going to turn into a matter of semantics, but I wasn't implying that we shouldn't improve it, not at all. But really just more that there's always going to be flaws in any system. With the addition of ASM, hacks are going to continue to become different species.

All your points here are valid, they're just stemmed from a misinterpretation of mine.

[Grimlock]

Currently all of the hacks available on the site are Super Metroid.  Are there any plans to include hacks for other Metroid games?

[FullOfFail]

I need to talk to Vis more about it, since he's redesigning the site, but there will more than likely be a section for all other metroid hacks.

[personitis]

I remember talking with Vismund at one point and he did say there would be a section for Netroid hacks so don't worry. How in depth said section will go into categorizing however, I don't know.

[MetroidMst]

Again, simple little boxes checking off a few things would fit NEStroid, and other hacks in general, without having to develop a whole new set of definitions for those hacks.

Just saying. It is simple, easy to determine upon release what has been edited, and boom. Done.

[snarfblam]

I don't see any reason for NES hacks to be treated differently from SNES hacks or even segregated. A field or icon denoting the system or game the hack is for should be sufficient.

[FullOfFail]

I don't see any reason for NES hacks to be treated differently from SNES hacks or even segregated.

I'd disagree with that, they'd be best separated into their own categories IMO. The list is already long and confusing as-is. But depending on which system we end up implementing, it may not matter anyway. They'll be as split or conjoined as you'd prefer.

I could even add them now, but the only thing keeping me from it is I dont really know anything about them. Dont know how many have been released, or all of their locations. It's not due to any type of bias, it's due to ignorance. If you educate me and throw me a bunch of links, I'll work on it, though.

[JAM]

I've just uploaded my lastest hack. Because I can Because someone forgot Just because. =)

By the way, I think, there should be a uncategorised list of all existing hacks, sorted alphabetically. If you just want to search for a hack XXX, don't knowing anything about its type (is it mini or half or from some contest, for example).

[Vismund Cygnus]

Porque no los dos?

But really, why not have game, category, and what's edited? Honestly, category will likely only exist until ratings are fully done, in which case they'll be removed.
An example could be something like this:

Key:
G - Graphics
GP - Gameplay
L - Levels
M - Music
(anything else needing a checklist?)

Name	Version	Author	Rating	Hack Type	Game	G	GP	L	M	Download
Z-Factor	1.3	Metaquarius	8.9	Full	SM	-	x	x	-	[rar, uh]
Incursion	1.1	Grimlock	9.2	Full	M1	x	x	x	-	[h]

Something like that would be fine and I doubt it'd be too much work for anyone involved.

[Quietus]

Perhaps with categorisation, we could take a leaf out of romhacking.net's book, and have a table with a number of small columns followed by the rating, and just have the changes columns ticked for the relevant change having been made?  We could even consider having the version and date like they do too.

Vismund no read.  Make I sad. :sad:

[snarfblam]

I'd disagree with that, they'd be best separated into their own categories IMO. The list is already long and confusing as-is.

Which is why you're planning on fixing the list, no? Other than that, what would be the reason to separate them out? Not a major gripe, just a thought. Moot anyways if you actually implement something a bit more dynamic.

Do we have to submit out stuff to the "Completed Stuff" to get it added to the site's list? At the very least, MDBtroid, Roidz', Metroid + Saving, and Homeworld should be added. We can do without the broken metedit hacks.

[Vismund Cygnus]

Perhaps with categorisation, we could take a leaf out of romhacking.net's book, and have a table with a number of small columns followed by the rating, and just have the changes columns ticked for the relevant change having been made?  We could even consider having the version and date like they do too.

Vismund no read.  Make I sad. :sad:

Oh man, how did I not see this Quietus? But yeah, that is pretty much what I did. Great minds think alike?  :heheh:
As for those snarf if you wanna send them to me or Fof one of us will chuck them on the site, for now probably under the category M1, until stuff gets fixed up.  :^_^:

[Grimlock]

At the very least, MDBtroid, Roidz', Metroid + Saving, and Homeworld should be added. We can do without the broken metedit hacks.

Clarification for the non Nestroid among us: (pretty much everyone)

"Homeworld" was the build name, I ended up going with "Incursion".  In Snarfblam's defense I did leave it up as "Homeworld" for about 2 years before changing the name in the end.  :wink:

[FullOfFail]

Added 2 M1 hacks already, going to be adding more later today.

How do I track down Fusion Hacks? If someone knows them, throw me links or names.

[snarfblam]

Clarification for the non Nestroid among us: (pretty much everyone)

"Homeworld" was the build name, I ended up going with "Incursion".

ops... Sorry, my mistake.

[JAM]

How about THIS?

#	Name	Version	Author	Hack Type	Game	D	S	M	L	IO	IP	GP	B	I	E	P	G	Ph	♫
000	Expert Edition	1.0	Ir0n_beast	Half	SM	H	M	-	-	-	-	-	+	-	-	-	-	-	-
001	Chararin	1.0	???	Half	SM	S	M	-	+	+	-	-	+	-	-	-	-	-	-
010	Blackout	1.04	JAM	Half	SM	H	M	-	-	-	-	+	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
011	Nightmare	1.13	JAM	Half	SM	X	M	+	-	-	-	-	+	-	-	-	-	-	-
100	Project Base	0.7	Grime	Overhaul	SM	M	M	-	-	-	-	+	-	-	-	+	+	+	-
101	Darkholme Hospital	2.0	Cloud14	Mini	SM	M	S	+	+	+	+	-	+	+	+	+	+	-	-
110	Super Zero Mission	2.?	SBniconico	Overhaul	SM	M	M	+	+	-	+	+	+	-	-	+	+	-	-
111	Redesign	2.1	Drewseph	Overhaul	SM	H	L	+	+	+	+	+	+	+	+	+	+	+	-

Legend

D (Hack difficulty):

• E (Easy).
• M (Medium). Like original game.
• H (Hard). Cider, NonCompetion.
• X (Extreme). Very hard, but possible to pass by most players.
• S (Skill hack). Like Impossible. Just to beat it, you'll have to use tricks such as: Green Gate, Super Short Charge and such.

S (Hack size):

• 1 One room
• XS (Extra small). Up to 10 rooms. Can be cleared really fast.
• S (Small). Mini-hack. 1 or 2 areas are used.
• M (Medium). Size of original game.
• L (Large). Like Redesign.
• XL (Extra Large). 8 big areas.

Legend

M: Map changed
L: Layout changed
IO: Item order
IP: Item placement
GP: Gameplay
B: Balance (HP, damage changed/not)
I: Items (new added or old altered)
E: Enemies (same)
P: Palette
G: GFX
Ph: Physics
♫: Music

[personitis]

That's a lot of information that, I think, would actually deter people from wanting to look through. I don't think that breaking down a hack into THAT many "check boxes" is anywhere near necessary. Something near what Quietus/Vismund had posted (especially Vismund's post) works fine I believe.

I personally think that world size (small, medium, large), difficulty (easier, standard, harder), new graphics (none, some, overhaul), and custom code (none, a little, a lot) is enough to sort things. Possibly one or two additional columns or a bit more elaboration between the degrees to which each category is sorted.

tl;dr - Don't overwhelm somebody with options to choose from when they're looking at a list for a game to play. If that were the case, we'd likely be better off having a full blown review system.

[Quietus]

I think the options need to remain pretty minimal.  If players want to look at specific changes in any great depth, they can read the readme.

[Vismund Cygnus]

I think the options need to remain pretty minimal.  If players want to look at specific changes in any great depth, they can read the readme.

Or they can read the reviews that will likely be up on each hack's individual page. Each hack will still have its own thing, just that there'll be a brief summary on the site to help people find what they're looking for.  :^_^: