M. Planets - NES Style Game

[ShadowGodzilla1954]

This is a example of what I get

[ShadowGodzilla1954]

would it be better to just create a map, then make the rooms fit it?
Also is there a way to make sure the generator does not repeat rooms?

[VacantShade]

Based on the images you posted, it looks like the generator is having trouble finding elevators that it wants to use.
The generator will try to avoid repeating rooms, but if it really wants a specific type, say a hallway or hub, and they have all been used already, it will start repeating rooms.

I compiled a pack of 20 template rooms that can reliably generate any size world with the current version of 1.32. If you like, you can try importing it and see if that gets you a successful generation. If it does, then you can easily make copies of the rooms it seems to use the most and create your own designs for them.

[ShadowGodzilla1954]

Thank you so much for your help, I am going to restart, but you helped me so much!

Thank you!
PS does the generator only allow 1 motherbrain? I am trying to make the MB from Super Metroid. In addition how many missles does a expansion give you?

[VacantShade]

Glad to help!

Yes, the generator only places 1 Mother Brain room in each world. Missile expansions increase your capacity by 5.

[ShadowGodzilla1954]

Ok thank you so much. I noticed that there are 2 more items then on the room creator, screw attack and spacer beam. Are there any others?

[VacantShade]

Those are the only 2 items in the current 1.32 version that generate in worlds but are not in the Room Studio. (There is also a set of 10 original items called "Cores" but those do not generally affect progression)

There is currently no official/straight forward way to force a Spazer Beam check, and most workarounds that I have seen come with some issues, like forcing the player to need to disable Wave Beam to trigger it and then re-enable it afterwards, which isn't ideal from a gameplay perspective. So once we get some sort of official easy to use object or something that can force Spazer Beam, it will be available in the Room Studio.

Likewise with Screw Attack, it is possible to create Combat rooms that have enemies which can only be killed with Screw Attack, thus forcing the use of it. But since there will likely be future items/methods for killing those same enemies, it could mean a lot of going back and adjusting pathing if it were allowed in pathing now. So once the engine is more feature complete, it might be safe to add Screw Attack in as a progression item for room pathing.

[latinking]

With the recent focus on the Enigma and Room Studio modes (apologies if I didn't get the names right), does that mean we won't be seeing any more updates to "Zebeth" mode?

Zebeth is still missing neat things that are exclusively found in the Famicom version of Metroid. Notably, the expanded A.I behavior of enemies (ex: Sidehoppers, Desgeegas, Ridley's fireballs and Kraid's back projectiles), sound effects (ex: Metroids when they get hurt) and the blue money bags added to a completed save file.

Adding these would make Metroid Planets' Zebeth mode 1 step closer to being truly complete!

[VacantShade]

Good question! There are a couple things I'd still like to do with Zebeth in the future, but they aren't the things you mentioned.

I have only played the original Metroid on NES a couple of times, so I am not very familiar with some of things you mentioned. If you could provide a few details on what you mean I can look into them! I think about Ridley's fireballs you probably mean their forward momentum? It should be randomized but if it is not that may be a bug I can check out.

I can ask the main audio composer if he would like to add some more Metroid sfx.

I don't know if I will add the money bags since they feel a bit funny in a sci-fi setting, but I can see how fidelity to the original could be appealing. :^_^:

[Dinar87]

Hey man  :yay: what's up?

[latinking]

I have only played the original Metroid on NES a couple of times, so I am not very familiar with some of things you mentioned. If you could provide a few details on what you mean I can look into them! I think about Ridley's fireballs you probably mean their forward momentum? It should be randomized but if it is not that may be a bug I can check out.

I can ask the main audio composer if he would like to add some more Metroid sfx.

I don't know if I will add the money bags since they feel a bit funny in a sci-fi setting, but I can see how fidelity to the original could be appealing. :^_^:

The Famicom had superior specs to the NES, featuring much richer music/sfx and better enemy behavior. I'll use the Sidehoppers as a first example.

Famicom version: Sidehoppers alternate between small and large jumps at any time, making them a greater threat because of their unpredictability and also because they can navigate around room obstacles to reach Samus's location.
NES version: Sidehoppers can not alternate between small and large jumps in a single gameplay session. Each time you boot up the game, the cartridge will enable only a single type of jump for all Sidehoppers, and they will be stuck with it until the next time you boot it, where it might give them the opposite jump (it chooses randomly). This severely limits the Sidehoppers' ability to chase Samus.

The following links are from a Famicom playthrough with timestamps at 45:15 and 41:36, showing Sidehoppers doing both jumps.
https://youtu.be/YpLP8aGXcWs?t=2715
https://youtu.be/YpLP8aGXcWs?t=2495
You can imagine how, on the NES, a Sidehopper that can only jump high or low will be hindered by the layout of the rooms.

Ridley's projectiles is another example of improved behavior/pattern on the Famicom, but it's pretty much the same principal. The NES only allows him to have either close-range fireballs or long-range fireballs on boot up, while the Famicom grants him the ability to switch between the two depending on where Samus is. This means that, on the NES, if Ridley is stuck with long-range fireballs, you can stand right next to him and shoot missiles without any repercussions because his projectiles will always fly over you. I was able to do exactly this on my last playthrough of Metroid Planets.

The following video is the same Famicom playthrough but with a timestamp at 26:49 for the battle against Ridley.
https://youtu.be/YpLP8aGXcWs?t=1609
You can see how the fight is slightly more challenging because his fireballs leave no safezones. Whether you're close or far, they will reach you, unless you're in the lava below. Later on in the playthrough, you can hear the different sfx for Metroids, though I think you'll notice through these previous clips how different the game sounds overall (doors, beam shots, item fanfare, Screw Attack, bosses, etc). There's a video that shows most if not all the audio differences between NES and Famicom versions, with timestamps on the video's description:
https://youtu.be/_xO4c2GXvlo?t=1

I'll do research for what other enemy behaviors are affected by the consoles, but I recall it's only a handful. Metroid Planets already implemented the Famicom behavior for the Polyps and Squeepts.

[VacantShade]

Hey man  :yay: what's up?

Hey, nice to see you again!  :^_^:

Famicom version: Sidehoppers alternate between small and large jumps at any time, making them a greater threat because of their unpredictability and also because they can navigate around room obstacles to reach Samus's location.

Very interesting! I'll look into seeing if something like that would be good to implement, considering that a lot of rooms already have used those enemies. :^_^:

If Ridley is stuck with long-range fireballs, you can stand right next to him and shoot missiles without any repercussions because his projectiles will always fly over you.

That might be a bug, since the speed variants are coded for that projectile. I'll take a look!

The main audio composer Loeder just recently sent me that video on the sound differences actually! I think he's interested in keeping the overall tone of the audio more in line with the NES version, since some of the Famicom samples can be tough to work with or can sound a bit out of place. But he might decide to try and design a couple more sounds for certain things as time goes on.  :wink:

[latinking]

Very interesting! I'll look into seeing if something like that would be good to implement, considering that a lot of rooms already have used those enemies. :^_^:

Yeah iirc quite a few rooms make the enemies kinda useless because of the layout (ex: the ceiling-dessgeegas can't reach players on the ground level, and some rooms with floating platforms are beyond the reach of ground-based Sidehoppers).

That might be a bug, since the speed variants are coded for that projectile. I'll take a look!

According to the Wikitroid: "The Famicom randomly chooses a different trajectory for each fireball, meaning players must deal with a wide variety of speeds and patterns". It's weird because it really didn't seem randomized in the video clip, but rather the A.I switching between close-range and long-range fireballs depending on how close Samus was. Though it is true that some fireballs seem to move up and down faster than others.

The list of enemies that were "downgraded" in the NES are the following: Both jumping enemies, Kraid, Ridley, Polyps, Squeepts and finally, Dragons. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to find information in what way Dragons were nerfed, but I DO recall that in certain NES playthroughs, Dragons never spat out their fireballs. All of them would simply pop their heads out, stare, and then sink back down. Maybe the Famicom enabled them to randomly choose between attacking and doing nothing? In any case, you made the right call by making them spit all the time in Metroid Planets, since it makes them more dangerous.

EDIT: Forgot to mention that Kraid's back spikes are thrown at several different lengths on the Famicom, kinda like Ridley's fireballs.

[latinking]

I MIGHT have found a bug in the current version of Metroid Planets (1.32).

While checking out what's been ported over from the Famicom version, I noticed how all Polyp gates in Metroid Planets (the red "doors" on the ground) have a huge delay in shooting when they're loaded up. Meaning, as soon as the gates appear on-screen, players can walk past all of them before they ever get a chance to shoot their projectiles, making them a very negligible threat. In this playthrough of Planets from a year ago (couldn't find which version it was), the Polyp gates begin shooting FAR more early.
https://youtu.be/Gx1U2QHME4Q?t=4396

That earlier version of the Polyps is closer to how they behave in the Famicom version, though the latter is more erratic with its projectiles (some travel farther than others, while those from Planets all have the same distance).
https://youtu.be/YpLP8aGXcWs?t=809

Btw, I saw that the earlier version of Planets didn't have the background fade to black when travelling between rooms! What was the reason behind this change in the latest version of the game?

[VacantShade]

Yeah, that could be an issue with the Polyps delay, I'll take a look!

A lot of Zebeth and Novus stuff was hard coded into the game which made it difficult to update and work with. This was changed about a year ago when a lot of the engine was rewritten to be more unified, using what had been designed for Enigma as a base. That means stuff that was originally unique to Enigma, like the room transition code, is now also used for the other planets.

[Bongoboy]

Hi!
I happen to only find out about this about a week ago, so I am kind of late to the party. I am a huge fan of Metroid and having played through both Zebeth and Novos made me realize how timeless the design... and fun the gameplay of Metroid 1 really is.
Apart from a few things like the duration of invulnerability(on NES you can get hit, fall into the lava, press jump immediately to get out of it and not get hit right away again) or the timing of when bombs explode this is really good!

Playing Novos I have to say I don't like that at Mega Kraid there is so little space to move. I get it that he can't move like in Super Metroid, but the space is a tad to limited for my tastes, makes it hard to impossible to get up especially since the rhythm of belly-horns being shot and back-nails flying is so well timed that you always have to jump into them. It didn't help that the belly-horns are solid and you can't jump through them... like I remember you could in Super Metroid.
I like that Ridley grabs you, and rubs you down the wall, what would be cool is if he had a few phases maybe signified by color change, where he grabs you to rub you down the wall to bring your Energy to a certain level. Similar to the original Mother Brain fight on Super Metroid. That way tensions could rise allot higher, but then his attacks need to be done in a way that with skill you can evade them

Then I found more videos on YT, so I see that you added allot things from later Metroid games like the Space Jump among a ton other stuff. Joined the Discord and finding that some people recreating Super Metroid only to find out you need to have Enigma 0.73 when all you can download is Metroid Planets v1.27g or Metroid Planets v1.32 and both don't have Enigma 0.73 but instead 0.74.
So I think, why not just take the rooms and connect them myself? Yeah... there is no World Editor. Why???

I think the idea of Enigma is really good, reminds me at A Robot Named Fight.

But to be honest, I think a World Editor that allows you to take Rooms you made and just stamp them on a canvas, allowing you to select Power-up locations and directly select what Power-up is there... is also something that allot people would enjoy.
Imagine adding a option, where you can add a Planet, similar to Enigma where you select a World file and then there are 3 save slots for you to play it!

[VacantShade]

Hello, great to hear you enjoyed the game!
It was fun to try and design unique boss fights, but I'm sure they could have been done differently. :nod:

Enigma is still very much a work in progress, so the file format changes from version to version causing incompatibilities. This is a big reason why a World Editor isn't really a good idea yet, though it would be cool to see in the future if the project gets that far.

You mentioned a specific Super Metroid world file that no longer works. If it is a world that was randomly generated on an older version of the game, you can use the same Super Metroid rooms to generate a new world on the current version if you like.

[Bongoboy]

You mentioned a specific Super Metroid world file that no longer works. If it is a world that was randomly generated on an older version of the game, you can use the same Super Metroid rooms to generate a new world on the current version if you like.

I am unsure if it was indeed a randomly generated world. Supposedly it is a recreation of Super Metroid in Metroid Planets. There is so little documentation about anything Metroid Planets really, you can't even get your hands on older versions of Metroid Planets. Asking on the Discord someone told me that this particular Super Metroid world needs Enigma V0.73 but the only two Metroid Planets versions available to download are v1.27g and v1.32 which both have Enigma v0.74.
There is nowhere I found a older Metroid Planets download, on Discord or otherwise online.

I did import all the rooms of that Super Metroid pack, it is good that the way got changed how that works. In Metroid Planets v1.27g all you can do is import single rooms, while in v1.32 you can just drag & drop which makes it way faster.

For Enigma, I tried to generate a world with all the 130 rooms I have and the game could not create a world and kept failing. I think this is due to the fact that you can make Rooms any size and shape you want and then the system might miss a few tiles.

If this was my project I would not have made a randomization planet first because that can be super tricky, which I see myself confirmed by Metroid Planets. Just have a solid base editor. The Room editor is really good, the only thing missing is that you have a World editor where you can take Rooms and place them on a big map.

But it is your project not mine, so maybe ignore my ramblings.

[VacantShade]

If the generator is failing to create a world with just the SM room pack, it could be that it is missing a couple room types needed to reliably generate worlds. If that's the case, maybe the community will add a few rooms to compensate for this with time.  :^_^:

If I had to guess, it might be that it needs a couple single screen dead end rooms, mostly with vertical doors. There are several rooms in SM with vertical doors, but not really any dead end rooms, and that can be hard on the generator.

Random vs Planned worlds both have pros and cons for sure! We have a lot of great tools in the Metroid community already to make "worlds" from scratch in the respective games, but there is still a limited output because not many people can dedicate that kind of time and effort to a project like that. I like that the random worlds allow people to just create a few rooms and still see them used. It lowers the bar of entry for a lot of folks, and helps them feel part of the community when they see their 1 or 2 rooms in a world!

For this project specifically, its still a big work in progress and lacking a lot of content that I'd like for it to have. Since it will take a long time to get there, having an easy way to have lots of content via randomized worlds for people to enjoy seemed like the way to go. It was also something that had not been done before for Metroid, so I wanted to try something different. But obviously it would be great to have both someday!  :nod:

[Bongoboy]

If the generator is failing to create a world with just the SM room pack, it could be that it is missing a couple room types needed to reliably generate worlds. If that's the case, maybe the community will add a few rooms to compensate for this with time.  :^_^:

If I had to guess, it might be that it needs a couple single screen dead end rooms, mostly with vertical doors. There are several rooms in SM with vertical doors, but not really any dead end rooms, and that can be hard on the generator.

Random vs Planned worlds both have pros and cons for sure! We have a lot of great tools in the Metroid community already to make "worlds" from scratch in the respective games, but there is still a limited output because not many people can dedicate that kind of time and effort to a project like that. I like that the random worlds allow people to just create a few rooms and still see them used. It lowers the bar of entry for a lot of folks, and helps them feel part of the community when they see their 1 or 2 rooms in a world!

I thought about that quite some time. Basically what you can/need to do is make rooms that have 1 door, 2 doors, 3 doors and 4 doors. You also need allot variety for the door rooms, like the 1 door one you basically need to make 4 versions with the door at each of the 4 different sides. 2 door rooms can have 6 different versions and 3 door rooms 4. If you went and just duplicated rooms to account for different door setups, that is quite allot rooms you have to make... and not just "a few rooms"!
I think this is a huge negative thing to Enigma. It is relative easy to "just make a few rooms" but if you want to be able to see a world being complete is a total different story entirely.

You mentioned "tools" that can "make 'worlds' from scratch" you mind pointing me in some direction? I didn't look around allot on the forum here, I basically just made a account to communicate with you to some degree.

[VacantShade]

You can find a number of tools here and on the main site.

M1: https://metroidconstruction.com/resource.php?id=1
M2: https://metroidconstruction.com/resource.php?id=584
SM: https://metroidconstruction.com/resource.php?id=63 https://forum.metroidconstruction.com/index.php/topic,3895.0.html
MZM/MF: https://metroidconstruction.com/resource.php?id=90

You'd be best off joining the MetConst discord server and asking any more questions there. I'm not knowledgeable about any of these tools myself.
Have fun! :bounce:

[Unknow0059]

I'm fascinated by the fractional missile count indicator.

In the old version, the count was bigger than the capacity, on top of being white; whereas the capacity was grey, and at maximum capacity it changed to the word "max", rather than to a number redundantly identical to the count.

In the new version, they're the same size, but colored different, the capacity no longer changes into "max" (I'm indifferent about this change), and the whole thing is smaller (which I like).

It is genius that the developer(s) sought to alleviate readability/visibility issues inherent to fractional indicators of quantities.

We tend to read big numbers first ( 879/231 ) regardless of position ( 365/789 ) and find disuses & redundancies distracting (I refuse, saying, no/yes. OR I agree, saying, yes/yes.)

My only gripe is that in both versions the missile icon doesn't look like a missile. It looks like Samus skydiving, with her parachute deploying behind her, or like a podracer.

[VacantShade]

Hey, thanks for the kind words!
The HUD has gone through a number of different iterations over the years, and even now it is different depending on your chosen aspect ratio.

But yeah, I have trouble with number displays like that, so I'm glad the current design mitigates that confusion a bit. :^_^:

Also I have never heard the missile icon described like that and it is hilarious! :lol:

[VacantShade]

VERSION 1.33 - New Stable Build

This update focuses on bringing improvements to the Room Studio, by polishing a lot of the UI and bringing new and expanded tools.



Some of the more notable additions:
+ STAMPS: Design and save groups of tiles along with their palettes to use again in other rooms, and share them with other designers!
[spoiler=Stamp tutorial video]https://youtu.be/fZ7-Mp68OdQ[/spoiler]
+ SPAZER BOLT: A new object that interacts exclusively with Spazer Beam!
[spoiler=Spazer Bolt Demonstration GIF][/spoiler]
+ ROOM IMAGE COLLAGE: Easily select a group of rooms and automatically export an image of them put together!
+ HELPFUL ETECOON: A helper who can give personalized suggestions on how to path room logic!
+ TINY WORLDS: Generate even smaller worlds, with as little as 2 Areas! Great for testing rooms!
+ MUSIC BY LOEDER: Bop along to 3 new retro 8-bit tracks by Loeder!

Have fun!  :bounce:

[Dinar87]

VERSION 1.33 - New Stable Build

This update focuses on bringing improvements to the Room Studio, by polishing a lot of the UI and bringing new and expanded tools.



Some of the more notable additions:
+ STAMPS: Design and save groups of tiles along with their palettes to use again in other rooms, and share them with other designers!
[spoiler=Stamp tutorial video]https://youtu.be/fZ7-Mp68OdQ[/spoiler]
+ SPAZER BOLT: A new object that interacts exclusively with Spazer Beam!
[spoiler=Spazer Bolt Demonstration GIF][/spoiler]
+ ROOM IMAGE COLLAGE: Easily select a group of rooms and automatically export an image of them put together!
+ HELPFUL ETECOON: A helper who can give personalized suggestions on how to path room logic!
+ TINY WORLDS: Generate even smaller worlds, with as little as 2 Areas! Great for testing rooms!
+ MUSIC BY LOEDER: Bop along to 3 new retro 8-bit tracks by Loeder!

Have fun!  :bounce:

Nice to see you're still working on this  :grin: