[M1] Metroid - Rogue Dawn - Version 1.21

[begrimed]

If this was a full blown game, I would have tried harder, and I probably wouldn't have held back. I'm not sure why I did...but I did.

lol, what a straight-up asshole thing to say. It's interesting how you're capable of "not holding back" on a full blown game, but yet seem unable to "convey ideas" for a hack.

The point of beta testing anything, besides trying to find ways to break it, is to give as much of a response as you can, positive or negative, and then leave it up to the developers(s) to take or leave your feedback. Opinions are important in the beta stage, especially negative ones. Even just saying 'something feels weird with this-or-that' is sometimes enough for a developer to know exactly what you mean. Not doing that is how you sabotage a promising project.

(Don't worry, you can still beta test my hack when it reaches that point)

[DonnyDonovan]

"I'd rather play something a bit sooner that's not as good than a fully polished, perfected piece of work" said NO HACK PLAYER EVER.

[Nemark]

I found a spot where you can fall into the map. It's in the first part of the final area. If you stand up at a certain spot in the tunnel where you see the first Metroids, you can fall down. You can then fall further down and end up at the top of the screen. Dunno if it's been pointed out yet.

http://imgur.com/a/7rU5l
http://imgur.com/a/WeGAe
http://imgur.com/a/XIph4

About the content and difficulty of certain areas (like the warp mazes), I found them challenging but not impossible. I don't think areas should be removed based on their difficulty unless they're completely broken and impossible to get through. Maybe add some visual indicators of which path is right. Likewise with the drop shafts in the Metroid area, I thought they were actually really fair with the platforms they provided. I hope all the criticism of the more difficult areas in the game doesn't gut it of any challenge and uniqueness.

[RealRed]

Beta testing isn't an early access program. It's blood and sweat where you play the game numerous times, attempt numerous unusual things, jump into every wall, bomb every block, step on every platform. LITERALLY EVERYTHING must be tested to ensure airtight quality.

From personal experience I know that many people who sign up for beta testing just want to play the hack ASAP. I didn't credit testers whose feedback didn't go beyond "good work!" after a single playthrough. That's not a contribution. I know it was cold but I gave credit where due. A playthrough does not compare to months (years in grim's case) of toil, testing, and trouble.

It's pretty disrespectful too, using the 'hack' aspect of Rogue Dawn as an excuse for your lack of effort. Grimlock did a damn fine job making something new to play. I was so convinced it was a new game that I forgot about basic metroid 1 conventions until late game. Better than most of us have done.



About the map, I had mixed feelings too. It becomes a bit deceptive when two shafts exist within one. I appreciated being able to look for item dots (a destination) but being able to see the entire world it becomes tough to mentally grasp. Within NES limitations though, it was better than nothing. We just need that wall jump item dot  :wink:

[Grimlock]

Regarding the layouts of the areas, here's the reason why they are generally structured the way they are:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

If I had an infinite grid to work with or a variable grid that could be wider rather than a square grid I absolutely would have laid out the areas differently.  The fact is I had to work within the boundaries of the original game engine.  For example, have a look at the left most large area, that's the jungle.  Ideally I would have liked to have gone wider rather than taller.  Also earlier and separate access to the sub area to make it more of it's own thing would have been nice, as is it's a pattern of open and linear sections.  Theirs not much else that could have been done there instead of stacking sections (as is).  Also with M1 you can't overlap screens so you're blocked up against the neighboring areas which defines the space of the adjacent areas.

[AuroraxPhilic]

@RealRed I already stated this before in the past. People want in asap. I wanted in asap, I'll be honest, but I also wanted to break the game.
And trust me, I tested RD to death, breaking the game to hell and back.
Tell me...is it easy to undo/change years of hard work if you're the only one really working on the hack? Think about it. I'm not trying to be a dick here...if you look at it from my perspective, I think you'd understand my worry; rather than say that I'm on the blacklist for "people who aren't allowed to test my game" @Scyzer .

Grimlock, I know the limitations. Remember that I'm making a hack as well.
But a I stated in my rant, you have to work with that in mind.

[RealRed]

Tell me...is it easy to undo/change years of hard work if you're the only one really working on the hack?

Yes. Terraforming a room to better suit the player is but a minor task when compared to the cumulative work put into making the world from scratch in the first place.

[Odb718]

Also with M1 you can't overlap screens so you're blocked up against the neighboring areas which defines the space of the adjacent areas.

You _can_, it's just a pain to keep track of in your head. It's best to start from the ground up on map layouts.
I made a TINY example in Snarf's Mission 1 rom I edited into Mission 187. Room 1E, 0F is shared both by Brinstar and Norfair, room 26. I was actually planning a rom based off of this entirely. I have an example rom with a puzzle built into it where I allowed the doors to switch between vertical and horizontal depending on how you exited the puzzle. I can upload it if it's on this hdd. It's been a long while since I worked on the PoC of it.

[RT-55J]

This game does have a few issues. However, being harder than or designed worse than M1 are not among them.

How was M1's level layout and design worse? And PLEASE take into consideration the very huge difference between the original rom and SnarfBlam's work. RD couldn't possibly be built on top of the original game.
The game is actually harder than Nestroid. I'm not sure how you see it as easier. Or are you just saying that it being harder isn't considered an issue?

uh, RD is literally built on top of the original game's engine

I'll grant you that there is no way in heck it could have been released in 1986, but I think that with some very modest paring down the hack could have been released as a 4 megabit MMC3 title around 1990 or '91 (which was pretty standard around that time). RD is 6 megabits, but looking through the ROM in a tile editor there appears to still be a decent amount of free space, and a non-trival amount of space in PRG-ROM wasted on CHR data (useless, since RD uses CHR-ROM). Team RD probably could have squeezed the game into 4 megabits if needed, but it would have been a tight fit.

Anyhow, to answer your question about the quality of the world design: NEStroid hides basically half of the game beneath a completely untelegraphed and indistinct bombable floor. On the other hand, Rogue Dawn does have some obscure secrets, but nothing as essential as that.

Regarding difficulty: For the most part, any facet in which RD is more difficult than the original is offset by a quality of life improvement of some sort (e.g. more intricate map design -> hey we get a free map). About the only exceptions to this are the final boss and Ridley's replacement (however, I think we can all agree that OG Ridley was a complete chump). In the end, I would say the difficulty balances out rather nicely.

[Grimlock]

I shared this at RHDN so I thought I'd post here as well:


Update 1.20 is getting close.  I've been actively reworking the trouble spots in the level design.  I've been listening carefully to all the feedback and weighing my original intentions against the experiences of actual players to see if the intended result was achieved. 

Highlights:

Some trouble spots were brought to light in a few locations including the bug hive and the scrolling lava pit puzzle in the area adjacent to the final area.  Those have been reworked to eliminate the confusion. 

Other level design changes include removing some of the one way passages that drop you back a few screens and just make you have to work your way back.  It created an unexpected maze like feel to certain areas and unintended confusion. 

Some needlessly difficult spots have been toned down a bit including eliminating the long fall drop shafts in the final area.  The final area has been looked over to improve playability.

Some platforms have been reworked where slopes at key jump locations were making jumping difficult.  Other changes to improve navigating in tight spots have been made.

An alternate route to the Science Ship boss has been added.  The original route remains and is now more of a shortcut.  The new route is more intuitive.  The Science Ship is going to be fully mapped now as well.

New hidden features have been added.  Additional shortcuts and alternate routes have been added.  I was impressed by some of the exploits I saw in some of the YouTube videos I watched so I accommodated them in a few spots.  It's possible to break the sequence of item acquisition.  I'm interested to see who can figure out how to do it first  :)

Snarfblam is working on making the starting health always 99 rather than 30.  Also all heal stations will replenish missiles as well.

Lots of other improvements that will be listed in the change log!

[Scout1297]

Cool.
@Grimlock I was wondering if you could release a fully detailed map with all the missile locations and such once 1.2 is done.
I really want to try to speedrun for 100%.

[Steel Sparkle]

nice to see 1.2 is almost out. I will play this when it comes out. Can't wait.

[DonnyDonovan]

Same.  I've been recovering from a broken elbow and I'm just now back to using both hands pretty much pain-free, and even my physical therapist agrees some gaming would be a great way to work my hands!  As soon as 1.2 is released I'm getting right to work.

[Fe]

Just quickly going to put down my thoughts.

Overall extremely high quality in all areas. Nice music, detailed graphics, varied levels. I liked the exposition being built into the level design. Easter eggs were cute, I didn't explore the entire secret area though. I felt like the difficulty was balanced well, and since I found all the items before the bosses they were not a problem. The only thing I found really annoying was the final area. It was laggy (I understand this was unavoidable) and I had to go through it multiple times, which got tedious, though I understand this won't be a problem in 1.2. The mazes could have gotten to me, but didn't for some reason, guess I was just having too much fun to get frustrated. Though I did end up giving up on the hive maze.

Hard to put it down once you start playing - very addicting and rewarding, this definitely feels like what Metroid should have been. Well done with this, I think it's my new favorite hack and I'll definitely be playing it again soon.  :^_^:

6:04:27 completion time, 75%. Took my sweet time (getting lost).

[Grimlock]

Cool.
@Grimlock I was wondering if you could release a fully detailed map with all the missile locations and such once 1.2 is done.
I really want to try to speedrun for 100%.

I'll consider something like that after we get this final update out there.  Since I modified a few locations I'm going to post an updated map similar to registered's along with the new patch.

[RealRed]

[spoiler=Bug report]

permastuck from the opposite end of the screen. I looped to the other side.


You can enter this little notch in the wall. not an actual problem though.

A third one, no screen though. In the HIDDEN AREA, there's a room where you have to jump moving left across several clouds near the top of the screen. Well, if you decide to turn back,the door transition into the prior shaft room is fucked. The room will be horizontal instead of vertical so you can't go down, and if you try to return to the hallway, the camera will lock and you'll be permastuck.[/spoiler]

[Grimlock]

[spoiler=Bug report]

permastuck from the opposite end of the screen. I looped to the other side.


You can enter this little notch in the wall. not an actual problem though.

A third one, no screen though. In the HIDDEN AREA, there's a room where you have to jump moving left across several clouds near the top of the screen. Well, if you decide to turn back,the door transition into the prior shaft room is fucked. The room will be horizontal instead of vertical so you can't go down, and if you try to return to the hallway, the camera will lock and you'll be permastuck.[/spoiler]

Thanks, one of those are already fixed, two of them I'm working on right after posting the reply.

[SacredHooves]

I shared this at RHDN so I thought I'd post here as well:


Update 1.20 is getting close.  I've been actively reworking the trouble spots in the level design.  I've been listening carefully to all the feedback and weighing my original intentions against the experiences of actual players to see if the intended result was achieved. 

Highlights:

Some trouble spots were brought to light in a few locations including the bug hive and the scrolling lava pit puzzle in the area adjacent to the final area.  Those have been reworked to eliminate the confusion. 

Other level design changes include removing some of the one way passages that drop you back a few screens and just make you have to work your way back.  It created an unexpected maze like feel to certain areas and unintended confusion. 

Some needlessly difficult spots have been toned down a bit including eliminating the long fall drop shafts in the final area.  The final area has been looked over to improve playability.

Some platforms have been reworked where slopes at key jump locations were making jumping difficult.  Other changes to improve navigating in tight spots have been made.

An alternate route to the Science Ship boss has been added.  The original route remains and is now more of a shortcut.  The new route is more intuitive.  The Science Ship is going to be fully mapped now as well.

New hidden features have been added.  Additional shortcuts and alternate routes have been added.  I was impressed by some of the exploits I saw in some of the YouTube videos I watched so I accommodated them in a few spots.  It's possible to break the sequence of item acquisition.  I'm interested to see who can figure out how to do it first  :)

Snarfblam is working on making the starting health always 99 rather than 30.  Also all heal stations will replenish missiles as well.

Lots of other improvements that will be listed in the change log!

Just saying: that refill is going to be a GODSEND! Even if it's just the one before the final area I will take that: it's rather harsh when the Metroid's Health Bomb you at full HP and only 1 more chance to get a 30pak.
Also when is this going to be posted to the main page for MC's hacks? I want to put a review up without wasting a pound of space :p

[RealRed]

[spoiler=Bug Report 2]

Take a careful look at the two maps here. the T shaped room is different between the two maps.


This acid pit doesn't hurt samus Dawn.
[/spoiler]
Short list but I'm keeping my eyes peeled for more.


Woo!
Thanks to my knowledge about primary item locations, I was strapped when I reached the bosses. The game was a breeze.
I totally crushed the pogo stick boss this time around- and with missiles rather than bombs. My big problem was that my first trip to his lair, I had 1 Etank, 35 missiles, hijump and bombs.

I dunno if the recharge stations NEED to refill missiles. Just tweak missiles to drop a bit (read: a lot) higher. Es to Ms is like 7:1. It's hard as shit to have full missiles until you reach tourian. It's a doomspell if you're in a later dungeon without any beams.

[Grimlock]

All of the reported bugs have been corrected in the level design.  Regarding uploading to the site, I'll do that once we get 1.20 released unless it has already been uploaded.  Hopefully we'll have 1.20 out by next weekend.

[Registered]

Found a typo here (it's instead of its):
[spoiler]
[/spoiler]

Also here's my annotated map with most (250M/5E?) items. Couldn't be arsed to find the last missile or get the dotted "M" in the warp section.
[spoiler][/spoiler]

[piush]

I started playing this today. So far I am having fun. Will explore everywhere and not look for any help. Just want to say thanks for making this, So far I got [spoiler]the high jump boots and an energy tank and 35 missiles[/spoiler]. Will be back at this tomorrow.

[Grimlock]

Samus in Rogue Dawn (work in progress):


New graphic for our "reverse Justin Bailey" second play through.

[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

Just about all the graphics are complete, I just have a few more Samus frames to produce.

[passarbye]

Don't get me wrong, I like it, but it looks like her hips are too tall and her arm/elbow section is tiny.

[Grimlock]

Don't get me wrong, I like it, but it looks like her hips are too tall and her arm/elbow section is tiny.

Seems pretty proportional to the SM version of Samus:

[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

My version doesn't have the giant feet though and the legs are generally thinner.