SM Redesign: Axeil Edition FINAL

[Zeke]

Innnteresting. It looks like my stubbornness in sticking with 1.1 is to blame. See, I didn't know what you were talking about until I checked 1.4, because I've never been able to jump even a little bit in a sandfall underwater without gravity. Samus goes into her jumping pose for a second, but that's it.

But now we have a mystery! The sandfalls are mentioned in the 1.2 update notes, so that must be when some minor jumping ability was restored. You confirmed that this room is the right place to advance, so logically, that means EPB was unbeatable in 1.1 and below. But Hitaka posted his success only three hours after Drew announced 1.2. Hitaka, did you just whiz through the new version, or is there another route for 1.1 that I've missed?

[Hitaka]

I was literally right there at that spot when Drew updated the sandfalls. I was streaming and he was watching, that's how he found out about it. He fixed it, sent me the new version, and I loaded it up in a savestate and continued. Not sure how long after that he actually announced 1.2, but I got it a bit in advance, so that's why.

EDIT: Oh, and regarding the 21 blocks that kill your shine charge... I managed to spark up that shaft in Crateria anyway. If you get a running start and jump through, you can just barely get far enough in the next room to spark up and make it to the door.

[Zeke]

Oho! I had a feeling there might be some connection. So the room is officially unbeatable without upgrading to 1.2.

Nope. I've come this far with 1.1 already. I'm a simple man, and I believe in simple justice -- if you give me an impossible jump, I will give you a moonjump code. So that's what I've done to get through, and I'm now in Tourian. (Weirdest thing about EPB? I'm actually looking forward to getting my suit ripped off by Mother Brain. The game will finally no longer be expecting me to have gravity!)

And that shinespark IS possible, eh? Interesting. I wonder if it's easier or harder than the intended route, with its extremely tricky damage boosts.

[MetroidMst]

And that shinespark IS possible, eh? Interesting. I wonder if it's easier or harder than the intended route, with its extremely tricky damage boosts.

IIRC Drew said in IRC that it doesn't matter, since there is a grey door in the next room blocking progress.

[Zeke]

If he was asked about that, the anti-shinespark BS must also have come up. Did he address it at all?

[MetroidMst]

He wasn't asked, he brought it up because your post. The only thing with those BTS blocks was the grey door I mentioned.

[Zeke]

I may have to start coming on IRC. This forum is sorta like listening to one side of a telephone conversation.

[fxblue]

Hello Drewseph!

Precursor:[spoiler]
So I consider myself a decent normal metroid player. Good enough to get the best endings in Metroid games and I could do some advanced techniques for a little sequence breaking of my own in SM but I'm no WR speedrunner. Metroid Redesign 1.0 was my first SM hack I ever played years ago. I got all the way up until I had to hunt down the chozo and wasn't going to Xray scan the entire world. I had found a few, maybe even a good chunk of them but not all 12. That was the point where I gave up and just stopped playing, never to return. I also had used a fair bunch of save stating back then.

Onward to Axiel 1.4, I would say for the most part we didn't touch save states this time around except for a few exceptions. I played this with my brother as we traded off, I'm generally a better metroid player in regards to the trick sections and had to beat the last of the Tourian 3troids rooms. A. Situation wasn't difficult to get back to a 'checkpoint' and it was just tedious having to redo an entire required section going back many rooms. (Maridia sandfalls) B. Having just gone through enough that I felt like it was worth a save, with no save near by. (Ex beating Ridley) We also played this over netplay on zsnes which has an added ms of delay to everything so the auto skills were great for us.[/spoiler]


There was a good many areas that I saw to get more items but it just wasn't worth the trouble to put in having to redo large sections if there was one slip up.

Review:
There are things that I liked about Redesign 1.0 but for the most part I think that 1.4 is a better hack. However I feel like you are your own worst enemy for this hack, I know you're still working on it and Redesign is a huge project and an accomplishment for a metroid hack, but it's still rough around the edges so I can't recommend it to people yet, I hope you can make an even better 1.5! Here's my indepth input on my experience. Don't worry I'm not so angry as Techno and I understand that Redesign is more of a challenge hack, but if you'd like to make it easier so it could be enjoyed by more people then it needs some more work to be done.

Pros

+ The changes to the basic physics since 1.0 are a great improvement.
[spoiler]The jumps and walljumps feel much nicer this time around and though it's heavier it's not dropping like a rock. I didn't mind the changed physics and though I couldn't get IBJ to work on the heavier physics it wasn't required to beat the game. I quite like your heavier physics for a snappier metroid now that it's reasonable. Walljumps especially are a night and day difference since 1.0[/spoiler]

+ The new mechanics edits.
[spoiler]
New morph ball, new bombs, and level area displaying on the screen was a great sense of polish.

I don't mind the walljumps being an item but I would prefer that after you get them you can wall jump off any wall instead of the "it's just too slippery" feeling. While I can say for the most part I understood when a wall was "too slippery" I just feel like it would have been more fun without that restriction and letting me have some freedom instead of gating progress and linear paths through the world. Alternatively just make many more walls wall-jumpable and have the odd ones out as "too slippery".

The Beamcombo was a very cool transition from Metroid 1 beams to Metroid 3 but it feels a bit late that you get it.[/spoiler]

+ Zebes feels like it's lived in, and populated as a Space Pirate HQ.
[spoiler]Overall excellent work on the tiling making use of Super's assets. My only gripe is that you overused the platform sprite way too much in every single area of the game, this makes it feel kind of stale and plaid out instead of fresh new scenery. I missed the wreck ship but I liked your Norfair2 tiles right before Ridley, it reminded me a great deal of Metroid1 Ridley and Kraid areas.[/spoiler]

+ Screw attack feels badass, and space jump's no limit feels great.
[spoiler]One of my favorite parts of this hack was definitely when I got these. I simply love how screw attack changes my momentum in the air and makes me feel like a true weapon throwing a buzz saw of death at enemies. Space jump feels excellent being able to activate it at any point and I would say I barely ever touched the automatic version of it.
[/spoiler]

+ The Automatic skills are a huge plus
[spoiler]I was initially doing things manually but for cases such as air morphing this was extremely helpful. (Do note though that there are a good few areas where auto morph doesnt work when it's required).
[/spoiler]

+ The new map
[spoiler]I noticed early on playing that 1.4 has a revamped mapping system where some (required) secret exits show up on the map. It makes a massive difference when the player can see that they can get out of a room (somewhere) and they just have to put some metroid exploration hunting to work rather than being left in the dark.[/spoiler]

+ The hint system was definitely needed
[spoiler]We didn't touch until the end-game fetch quests, which was a great help because I would likely have quit again without it. There's no enjoyment to having to scan every room inch by inch with the Xray and that's what it was like pre-hint system. [/spoiler]

+ By far a more fair Redesign
[spoiler]The re-redesigned areas helped out on difficulty and added manual scrolling is much needed but I can't give it a pass with flying colors, Tourian is a huge glaring problem in terms of a difficulty spike just due to the Metroid rooms alone. I should note that we did a good chunk of damage to Ridley in Ceres so he was a serious threat and challenge to overcome in Norfair but it wasn't unfair, because we were already fairly stacked in terms of energy and items.

The fact that enemies drop large health way more often is such an improvement to cutting down on the tedious farming
[/spoiler]

+ On skipping Hell's Run. [spoiler]We actually didn't skip it because of the water bridge in Red Brinstar looked like it was too far to reach so I got to experience Hells Run Mk. 2 which was even longer to go through this time but it was still the rush I remembered it as. Hells Run is still a definite highlight of the hack, and I'm glad I didn't skip it even with the option to do it. I would suggest making the water bridge jump slightly easier to make just so the player knows they can make the jump now as opposed to needing Grav suit later.
[/spoiler]

+ I really enjoyed your concept of Zebes being a changing planet.
[spoiler]With earthquakes opening up new areas and especially the surface flood on Crateria. I would say that I wanted a bit more out of it, just because it was a very cool concept but really not utilized that much for the hack but it was appreciated small touches even if it didn't change a whole lot in terms of routes.
[/spoiler]

Cons

- Slow purposeless sections.
[spoiler]Too many purple doors, too many multi-gates to open, too many gates period. Norfairs 8 gate maze, Maridia's 4 and of course Tourian in general. These don't really add anything to the experience and just serve as artificial padding out the game with very boring unlock fetch quests. I like the idea of feeling like Samus is circumventing the security systems of Zebes but it's done to a rather excessive degree and most of the unlocks just serve as a quicker route back, rather than opening a new area. I feel like even if I got a missile rather than nothing but opening up a shorter route then I wouldn't have felt as miffed about it. Quite honestly, I would have prefered to have 1-missile expansions littered around rather than empty rooms and just shorter routes as a 'reward'
[/spoiler]

- Poor rewards for big efforts.
[spoiler]So many times did I go through a lot of work just to get measley missiles, or even worse just opening a shorter path. By doing this you're only punishing more average players to be forced to backtrack the long way around. There is many speedbooster chains that do nothing except open up a shorter path. (Maridia to Brinstar is a prime example of nothing gained except for time) In addition, I unlock some new area just to be immediatly blocked by something I don't yet have. This is actively discouraging players to put in the effort to explore when it doesn't pay off.

It also feels odd that the Bosses aren't really gaurding anything valuable for the majority of time. So you go through the challenge of beating them, but gain no reward other than an (maybe) unlocked area of the map. While beating the bosses can be satisfying in it's own right having a reward feels better as though the game is handing you a medal.
[/spoiler]

- Mystery Gray Doors
[spoiler]This is a fault of your inconsistent messaging, where in vanilla SM you can get through doors by killing enemies in a room or beating bosses... in Axiel 1.4 there is far, far too many gray doors that the player has no idea how to open and the majority of them are just locked from the other side, gaining you nothing except just a shorter route for backtracking. However you still have doors that DO open for beating enemies or bosses which leaves players guessing if a door will be unlocked or not by enemies/bosses or unlocked from the other side.

Beating Phantoon (Boss of Crateria) made me expect that the numerous gray doors throughout the area would be unlocked but actually beating Phantoon did absolutely nothing to benefit me from what I can recall. Only later to find that it's all part of the escape sequence. Vanilla SM did this much better when they hid everything out of sight so you couldn't accidentally stumble upon it so easily in plain sight. The way you have your escape doors in plain sight just makes players constantly backtrack to see if it's unlocked (which it isnt).

My suggestion to you is ditch the oneway gray doors and just have them be one way gates. This would instantly improve the messaging of what's required and people wouldn't be confused on how to open it, just that it must be opened from the other side.
[/spoiler]

- Musical chair mechanics, just because...
[spoiler]This is the lowest point for the hack to me and just bad design in general. This gets progressively worse the further you are into the game. You can jump out of this sandpit, but not this one (required to grapple swing). You can spacejump through this sandfall but these knock you out of spacejump (Giant Maridia sandfall). You can unmorph here, but not here where you clearly have enough room. You can unmorph midair anywhere else, except for this one shaft you fall out of (Brinstar).

I will say that your "my way or the highway" is what brings down this hack from being truely enjoyable. It feels more like a series of isolated trials rather than a cohesive whole of the game. You can't just change the rules with no messaging to the player and then expect them to be OK with that. It comes down to trial and error frusteration, the giant Maridia sandfall for instance my brother simply gave up on for a while because it felt like you weren't supposed to be there and we looked elsewhere until finally trying again after a while.

One of the worst offenders of this in the hack is in Red Brinstar when I couldn't unmorph even though I had enough headroom to stand up and jump, but instead I was forced to bombjump over and through spikes for legitimently no reason.
[/spoiler]

- Poor flow and bad pacing.
[spoiler]Redesign is a much more 'realistic' take on Zebes feeling like a planet and that's cool but it's got too many areas where you're forced to a grinding hault in pretty much everywhere except where you want a trick run or an escape. It just doesn't feel very enjoyable not being able to cruise through area's that you've previously been or being stopped every second by an enemy or some terrain change.

Too many areas of the game are designed to slow you down or artificially pad out the lenth of an already huge hack. 

I've recently played Ori and that game has some brilliant flow to it as you earn more and more you feel like you can breeze through areas that used to slow you down, it's a freeing feeling that you can measure against your previous backtracks. SM vanilla does this but your hack falls flat here, I feel that the sprawling length of Redesign wouldn't feel nearly as bad if it had an extra layer of flow to it underneath all of the realism.
[/spoiler]

- The ScrewAttack 'Puzzle'
[spoiler]This is just a very badly communicated design in general. So much so that we almost skipped it, and the only reason that I pressed on with it is because I knew from my previous run through Redesign 1.0 that that's where the screwattack is. It's unreasonable for you to expect the player to sit there for a full 15 seconds and with a stopwatch no less. At the maximum I would make the time be 5 seconds, all the way down to 1. Make it so the switches aren't on a time limit but only need to be activated in a certain order. The only reason I got screwattack is by reading the hints on the forum.

I vastly prefered Redesign 1.0 before Axiel introduced the gates, I could just grab the screwattack by skills. One thing to note getting the screw is that I grabbed it after getting my feet wet in Lower Norfair. Before having the screw LN was extremely painful and a real gauntlet, but after getting it LN became quite easy. Probably too much so that it took all of the difficulty out of LN except the Ridley battle. I'm not sure how you're supposed to beat Ridley without screwing through his attacks to avoid being slaughtered but we had it when we took him on.
[/spoiler]

- Metroids
[spoiler]The metroids are poorly designed from the get go. They phase through walls and attack before the player can even react, it seems odd to me that you went to such lengths to making a more realistic Super Metroid and yet the metroids instantly kill that sense of immersion because they just look buggy when all it takes is a split second and you're being attacked faster than you can blink. After that initial sour experience of the metroids they weren't that bad even though they became pretty later challenging. That was up until the final metroid rooms though... where they unfreeze super quick dodge and are much more hell to deal with than ever.

My suggestion for the metroids, if you really don't want to give up the respawning aspect then please get rid of the phasing through walls. Have a metroid hatch that can be closed off so they can fight their way to ending the metroid frenzy and it would feel much more fair being able to lockdown the metroid respawner and then contend with the metroids in the room. With the respawning system it just leaves people feeling bitter about their effort to kill the metroids in the first place. I beat the final metroid rooms as my brother couldnt, but even then I don't feel like I was that consistent with my method of clawing my way through. (I went back to the save after each final metroids room)
[/spoiler]

- Tourian
[spoiler]I don't have an issue with Tourian being it's own final area that you have to conquer rather than a tiny sliver of the game. However if it is going to be a whole new area then I think it should carry some rewards as well, all of the exploration is required to beat Tourian and there's no joy out of it. The zebitites 'puzzle' is just too annoying to deal with, the last thing the player wants to do from battling through all of Tourian is to turn around and go kill all of zebities through all of Tourian again. After you've cleared the metroids out Tourian becomes a very boring treck back even without the screwattack the space pirates are incredibly easy and no threat at all as half of the rooms are now empty.

Suggestion: Instead of needing to go through the whole of Tourian again now that the lasers are gone, I would just make it so the majority of zebtites are not protected by death lasers so that by the time the player reaches the final MB corridor they don't have to turn around and keep up the momentum. Having the zebtite be protected by enemies is enough.

Suggestion2: The very end of Tourian zebtite that unlocks the rest doesn't appear to be anymore important. If you insist on keeping the zebtite fetch quest then visually speaking this room should look more central-hub and reactor-core like instead of just exactly the same as the others. You definitely have the tileing skills to do it, you just didn't.

Final gripe on Tourian, it should have an energy refill station somewhere besides the very end of it. Let's face it, players are going to repeatedly exit Tourian and go refill energy in Crateria. This definitely dragged Tourian out a great deal having to make several trips out and back to Tourian just for that alone.
[/spoiler]

Other

+/- Lost Caverns
[spoiler]I quite like the idea of a Zelda style lost woods in Metroid but I don't feel like this is fair to the player at all. There needs to be a better hint on directing the player through the caverns and I must admit that I got through it by blind luck but I could have been there for hours. I understand that the poles are there as a means to hint, but having to do the opposite of what it says that's just not good communication.
[/spoiler]

+/- Hit or Miss Bosses
[spoiler]Kraid felt incredibly easy it didn't even feel different from Vanilla kraid so he was a push over. I should note that I had Varia suit when I faced him since i took hellsrun and got ice.
Crocomire was good, he felt more agressive in his pushing and you really had to drive him back.
Phantoon was a real bitch, the only one who gave me more trouble was Ridley.
Botwoon was extremely obnoxious on how little room you have to move around all of the rocks and sand.
Draygon was just a huge annoyance where every area of the floor is sand that slows you down AND damages you.
Ridley was a serious challenge, but it felt good and intense going toe to toe doing heavy damage to him and getting heavy damage back.
In contrast Golden Torizo was like nothing and felt out of place in terms of difficulty having just beat Ridley. But with no save afterwords this is okay, I would just prefer having access to a save after Ridley and have GT be actually somewhat difficult.
Mother Brain battle first stage is very easy as long as you dodge, and the 2nd stage is just a punching bag. If you could change that to be more of a fight instead of just being one sided, I would support it.
[/spoiler]

+/- The Escape
[spoiler]The escape wasn't too bad in terms of difficulty and other than the fact that it was convoluted and didn't really feel like there was any consistency to how Zebes is reacting I liked it. Going from one room where the acid is raising and then later going back down to where the acid should be, but isn't just felt weird, and again with lava rooms in Crateria or sudden water for no reason other than to slow you down. SM vanilla feels good because you understand you're at the bottom and every room you enter brings you closer to your ship. Whereas in this one, it really feels like there's no rhyme or reason to it and Samus isn't sure about leaving the planet.

I know that no one likes the underwater segments of Crateria Depths for the escape, it's not hard it's just slow and uneventful. Perhaps you were trying to put some tension into the escape by running the clock down for slower segments but I didn't get that feeling except at the very end with the outside flooding of Crateria's surface. Which is still easy to avoid all of the water if you just take the high road. If I were you I would remove all of the underwater for Crateria Depths in the escape, this is justifyable if the planet is breaking apart that means that the water could have fallen through cracks or just plain evaporated in all of the heat.

I felt a much greater rush and sense of accomplishment beating HellsRun than the slow escape of maybe-leaving Zebes. I would like to see some more tuning to make the escape feel intense instead of just drawn out.
[/spoiler]

BUG/QA
Getting the reserve tank in norfair (speed booster room) before space jump leaves you stranded unable to get out. I would say that you did a great job making sure that player didn't get perma stuck except for this one case scenario where I had to reset and get it after spacejump.

================================================================================================================

I definitely won't play the EPB run though it's impressive that you made that extra route in the hack. I don't hate myself enough to do it and I'm no SM expert but I respect that you coded it in there. :) I also found the bird alllll the way on the other side of Crateria by accidentally missing the jump to the ship landing into the water and trying to find another way back.

[Quietus]

You should submit it as your official rating. :^_^:

(Also, that page needs updating it's not current.)

[Technomagus]

Don't worry I'm not so angry as Techno and I understand that Redesign is more of a challenge hack, but if you'd like to make it easier so it could be enjoyed by more people then it needs some more work to be done.

Actually, Axeil was originally advertised as a "Beginner" hack.  It was supposed to simplify a lot of the problems that the original Redesign had to make it more accessible to players.  Which it did.  And then Tourian happened.  And then there was much yelling and gnashing of teeth.  Then Drew changed it to "Veteran."

[fxblue]

Well I can't say why Drew thought Redesign Axiel was easier than Vanilla but it's definitely easier than Redesign in the majority of the hack. The goal was to make it so players who couldn't beat the original would be able to finish this one and it's definitely done that but the difficulty spike of Tourian and musical chair mechanics through the whole game still could use some work.

I'm just referring to you as angry because of your streams and posts that people generally froath at the mouth DREWWWWWW and Axiel telling him to go fuck himself ect. Even my brother said he just wanted to punch Drew in the throat for all of the changing mechanics and forced backtrack resets if you mess up! I think a lot of the critisism is justified but I'm just taking a more objective critique approach to it.

Since you only have about half energy tanks max, plus the required 'secrets' to progress I think veteran will likely be as low as it gets.

[RealRed]

The reason why Redesign makes people emotional is because Drew tells us "everything is vanilla or easier" and yet the hack features hundreds of hours worth of work on assembly that waggles a crusty phallus in your face every time you try to enjoy yourself regardless of your well-earned skill at playing Super Metroid.
Also low ammo supply throughout the entire game unless you can solve massively complicated TAS puzzles.

[foxxdragon]

Hey guys, So I'm the brother that played with fxblue. His review of it is more or less how I feel, but he was much softer than I would have been because at the end of the day he at least enjoyed it and I was just kind of.. almost forcing myself to play it? It was weird. When I finished the game I wasn't really satisfied, I didn't feel like I accomplished much, I felt like I put up with it and now I was done. But at the same time every single time we started the game,. it was because I suggested it.. almost like a joke. "Ready for endless Metroid!?" So there had to have been something there. Maybe just morbid curiosity wrapped in masochism.

I want to be clear that I greatly respect the sheer amount of work out into this hack. It's incredible, really. Very carefully designed rooms, tweaked physics, things like easy wall dodge, splitting up the powerups and making you get them in new ways.. new areas, new map icons! New enemy AI! It goes on, it's crazy. I actually work in games for a living so it's very important that even if I don't like something, I can respect the work involved in doing it. I hate MMOs- I think they're a terrible bastardization of the genre which took the most boring part of RPGs (leveling) and made it the focus of the whole game. But I still respect companies like Blizzard, NC soft, and etc, for what they've accomplished. And hey most people like them so I'm the small minority anyway.

But- and you knew a "but" was coming, as a player I'm not going to lie to myself and excuse bad decisions just because a lot of work was put in. If all it took for success is putting the hours in, we'd all be set, but alas it's not that simple.

I think the reason it makes people "emotional" is because it's designed to do that. My brother mentioned that I said I wanted to punch drew in the throat, and at my intensely frustrated levels, I really did, in my mind (not for real, don't worry). Because he made me hate him. The game is designed in a way that absolutely hates the player. So the player is going to start hating back, and that hate just grows all game long.
The enemies are placed out of the screen at just the right angle so when you fall? you're going to hit them.
You run out of ammo constantly.
The majority of the game is you being damaged by things you couldn't have known were there until they hit you, and then farming health back again. This is especially bad in the early game.
The maps are blocked off by pointless gates, or speed booster blockages, or power bomb blockades. Or crumble blocks! Lots of crumble blocks. Why? Just to make you go allllll the way back around because he knew you were going to go down there, thinking you could get out, but guess what, you can't! haha!
The level design itself is in such a way that you constantly have to jump around and navigate it slowly- UNLESS it's speed booster time. Then you can navigate it. But only then.
Platforming? Underwater? don't do this. Don't do it repeatedly either.
The purple doors have been mentioned so many times, but here I go with the echo chamber: Why? Why make a purple door open up to a locked Maridia door over and over and over. You literally can't even open it from this side so why even block it off? Just to make the player waste ammo and yet again get pissed off when there is nothing worthwhile behind it.
And the inconsistent game mechanics are just icing on the top of this cake. If you can't do something consistently for various reasons, like maybe the fact it's a hack is holding you back, don't do them. You should always be able to exit morph ball- period. You should or should not be able to climb through sandfalls- pick one. Not both. Quicksand shouldn't sometimes be inescapable and sometimes not. It goes on.
Do I even need to mention Tournian? The Metroids are basically unplayable and the end of it.. Oh when we got to the end of the metroids and blew up the zebetite.. I said "watch him make us go all the way back through the whole level" And lo and behold, thats exactly what happened. Considering this was right after the mind numbing chozo quest (hey who loved that part in echoes when retro made you fetch quest all over the world? Anyone?), I kind of wanted to throw my controller.

The game doesn't respect you as a player and especially doesn't respect your time. The designer is hovering over your shoulder and laughing at you the entire way. I mentioned before that I know it took an insane amount of work, and that also means I understand when these rooms are being designed, they are deliberate decisions. These aren't accidental enemy AI weirdness or some title generator, they're put there.  Things are put there to ruin you, to screw you up, to waste your time. A lot of this was brushed off because it's a "challenge hack" according to my brother. Challenge is fine, I couldn't do 95% of those speed booster puzzles, and thats on me (thanks for not making those required). But the enemy placement, level layout , purple doors, so on.. is not challenge. It's just bad design.

Interestingly, I personally thought one of the best parts of the whole hack was Hell's run. I know, right? What!? But truly, I felt like it was very well designed, communicated clearly for the most part, and not full of cheap annoying tricks. It was hard, yeah. My brother was the one to beat it in the end, but I feel like I could have with enough practice. I also enjoyed the Ridley fight for the most part, it was intense but manageable in time.

In the end, I have to just say I don't understand why so much care was put into the world and so much disdain for the player. There is a good game under all this, a lot of neat ideas, but it's so buried under all the headache, So drawn out to endless tedium, and so much of that doesn't need to be there (halve the amount of triggers required for your gates, especially the one with 8). If you put as much thought into people actually being able to enjoy your game as you did on the rest, you'd have a winner, maybe even something to rival the original, which would be incredible. Maybe thats why I kept playing it. for that hope of digging out the good game. There were glimmers.. But it never came and actually got worse the longer I played- though I was never surprised by this.

I'm amazed that you're still putting work into this after all the years you created it a long time ago, Drew, that alone is respectable. But there are so many deep rooted problems, I don't really think various patches are going to save it. I don't mean to naysay all your efforts, I just worry you're going to be chasing after something you can't really solve without truly overhauling it yet again. But good luck.


...Oh yeah and... I hate you for ruining my IBJ.. Man, do you know how proud I was for learning how to do it in SM?! You'll go to a special hell for that! Curse you!  :evilno: :evilno: :evilno:
...
:heheh:

[fxblue]

The reason I'm going soft on Drew is because he IS demonstrating that while he's stubborn he is willing to make changes. Clearly he's a very bad judge of difficulty for his own hack, but for the most part his patches are making it easier for players. (The exception being the inconsistent rules, which are awful)

I honestly didn't mind the underwater Depths, it wasn't that long until the grav suit. My only gripe is that after I kill the purple pirates in the area they should stay dead.

Tourian is the big elephant in the room in terms of difficulty spike but I don't really think it's that hard to fix. There's a lot of things the metroids could and should be toned back on but even letting the player fire Supers faster will go a long way in dealing with the feeding pit. I didn't use ice SPA but now I wonder if it would have made those rooms more consistently beatable via a plan. Instead I paid more attention to their stun length and puzzled it out (it was still an uphill vertical cliff of a battle), leaving one stunned while I iced 2. Instead of Techno's bruteforcing with iceing all 3, generally a terrible plan for those metroids.

As far as running out of ammo I never really experienced that too much. Using psuedo screwattack and charge beam worked most of the time. Only time that I was dangerously low on ammo was in Lower Norfair and against Ridley when it was absolutely needed. The purple doors are nothing but an annoyance (would be best if it were 1 super + 5 missiles to open) but I wasn't in trouble if I didn't have missiles.

I didn't use any TAS but still managed to be fairly stacked by the end of the hack. Got 3 of 4 reserve tanks and could have gotten more items, but just didn't feel like the effort was worth it.

[RealRed]

WOW. I had a fair amount of E-tanks and supers (I think all but one or two Es, and between 18-22 supers) but I had trouble making my missiles break the 100 point. Even in a second playthrough, I think I only had 120 missiles to dig through tourian with.

I was turned around numerous times by puzzles that would lock me into morphball and pitch me over crumble blocks. This is often degrading and says to me "stop trying" when I have every power up in the game and remain boggled by how such a feat is remotely possible. Not to mention the reward is typically a two-missile pack. Just not worth it.

[Quietus]

I think part of the low ammo problem is the way the expansions were (Re)designed, especially for the missiles. With all of the easy to find packs, you're given just two missiles, and those in orbs give you five, while those hidden in walls give you ten. On a first play through, you're likely to find the majority of expansions are open, thus adding a worthless two, with the occasional orb making you feel at least a little rewarded with five. Overall, the feeling is 'meh'.

lock me into morphball and pitch me over crumble blocks.

I didn't mind most of these, as I was able to abuse spring ball, but some of them were just not even worth trying without save state abuse.

[A Dummy]

(I have not played Axeil Edition yet, but I have played the original hack that's on Drewseph's website.)

Maybe I just like shooting something and hearing a "Thump" sound afterwards, but I actually liked the purple doors, they gave me this feeling of needing to pound away at something.

I agree though, the Tourian metroids were too much. Maybe make them stop moving for 2 seconds when you hit them with a bomb so you can actually get away from them?

I can confirm that the gray doors everywhere confused me, I kept checking back on them to see if they opened after killing a boss, only to find out that they were part of the escape route.

For the most part being locked in morphball didn't bother me, but there is at least one spot I can think of in Norfair that just felt wrong to not unmorph where I couldn't reach a platform with the springball either.
It's the one large room on the lower left side of Norfair that's blocked by the blue gate that you need the Wave beam to get through, and it's above and to the right of the save point that's before Crocomire.

The Chozo quest was just fine for me, as I figured out that it's 3 statues for each area, and 1 in each section of an area, so that helped narrow down where to look.

I think in general I don't like it when a hack makes me go around some long path because of some crumble blocks or quicksand, if I come across that I always just rewind after the first time falling for it so I don't have to do 2 minutes of walking just to get back to so and so grapple point every time I mess it up.

I personally still had a lot of fun playing this hack though ( I won't lie, I like playing hard platformers like Super Meat Boy and I Wanna Be The Guy.) and I look forward to trying out the revised version of this in the near future when I'm not playing other hacks.

[CaRmAgE]

I recently saw this thread after having finished a run-through of the original.  Right off the bat, I spent way too much time watching that ball rolling animation.  You must've put a lot of time into this.

So far, all of the issues I had with the original were resolved in some way, including wall jumping responsiveness, camera controls, and morph ball jumping responsive.  I have yet to reach my original biggest complaint, the grapple gauntlet room, but that is my next major upgrade, so I will find out soon enough. [spoiler=Path To Kraid]My only issue so far was that, in all the years I played SM hacks, I thought those claw/grabber enemies were indestructible, so I kept trying to make that underwater jump on the way to Kraid without killing the dang thing (I did make the jump once).[/spoiler]

I am a bit disappointed that, based on what I read in this thread, Screw Attack can no longer be obtained early using clever Shinesparking, but I suppose I can live with that.

[Technomagus]

I recently saw this thread after having finished a run-through of the original.  Right off the bat, I spent way too much time watching that ball rolling animation.  You must've put a lot of time into this.

So far, all of the issues I had with the original were resolved in some way, including wall jumping responsiveness, camera controls, and morph ball jumping responsive.  I have yet to reach my original biggest complaint, the grapple gauntlet room, but that is my next major upgrade, so I will find out soon enough. [spoiler=Path To Kraid]My only issue so far was that, in all the years I played SM hacks, I thought those claw/grabber enemies were indestructible, so I kept trying to make that underwater jump on the way to Kraid without killing the dang thing (I did make the jump once).[/spoiler]

I am a bit disappointed that, based on what I read in this thread, Screw Attack can no longer be obtained early using clever Shinesparking, but I suppose I can live with that.

You can still get it early if you can horizontal-into-infinite bomb jump, and technically earlier than you would have been able to in the original Redesign as a result.  The grapple gauntlet has been completely nerfed difficulty-wise, and as a result, the "freebie" E-Tank in that room has been made harder to get.  Much of the early-game difficulty has been shunted to Tourian and the endgame.  Some of the guardians have been made easier to find, most of them are unchanged, though.  Also, for as nice as Screw Attack is, it's a complete liability when you try to enter Tourian, as every enemy knocks you out of it.  Also, getting Screw Attack before Draygon makes Maridia unnecessarily difficult thanks to sandfalls.

[Quietus]

Right off the bat, I spent way too much time watching that ball rolling animation.  You must've put a lot of time into this.

Not wishing to make it seem less cool, but it's a fairly simple patch from Black Falcon. :^_^:

[CaRmAgE]

Currently in the room right inside the Lower Norfair front entrance.  Shinesparking was... awkward, to say the least.  I actually failed to leave the speed booster room on my first attempt, because the shinespark would not recognize my left input (I made the entire escape on my second attempt, though).  Not to say there is anything wrong with it, since I still got that expansion involving [spoiler]several rooms of shinesparking from near the center elevator in Maridia to the bottom-left shaft;[/spoiler] it was just weird getting used to not holding run all the time.

Maybe it is just me, but space jumping still seems to be as unresponsive as it was in the original (as in, it works fine in water, but in air, it seems random whether it works or not). I am not just talking about the sandfalls, by the way. This happens to me anywhere in the air.  It has only been a minor inconvenience so far, though.

You can still get it early if you can horizontal-into-infinite bomb jump, and technically earlier than you would have been able to in the original Redesign as a result.

I just waited 'til I had Gravity Suit and used IBJ as I cannot do HBJs to save my life.

Also, getting Screw Attack before Draygon makes Maridia unnecessarily difficult thanks to sandfalls.

Kind of wish I knew that about 15 minutes ago :blush:, but thanks anyway.

Right off the bat, I spent way too much time watching that ball rolling animation.  You must've put a lot of time into this.

Not wishing to make it seem less cool, but it's a fairly simple patch from Black Falcon. :^_^:

Well, my second sentence was about the hack itself, not just the rolling ball animation.  Thanks for the info, though.

[Technomagus]

Currently in the room right inside the Lower Norfair front entrance.  Shinesparking was... awkward, to say the least.  I actually failed to leave the speed booster room on my first attempt, because the shinespark would not recognize my left input (I made the entire escape on my second attempt, though).  Not to say there is anything wrong with it, since I still got that expansion involving [spoiler]several rooms of shinesparking from near the center elevator in Maridia to the bottom-left shaft;[/spoiler] it was just weird getting used to not holding run all the time.

Maybe it is just me, but space jumping still seems to be as unresponsive as it was in the original (as in, it works fine in water, but in air, it seems random whether it works or not). I am not just talking about the sandfalls, by the way. This happens to me anywhere in the air.  It has only been a minor inconvenience so far, though.

There is an intentional delay when mid-air shinesparking, in order to give you a moment to press the direction you want to go.  The problem is, if you try to press left or right at the same time as jump to engage the spark, it defaults to "up" and ignores your input.  Has cost me many a horizontal spark figuring that out.

Space Jump is just as unresponsive as it was in the original.  It has two sets of "rules," for underwater and above water.  Underwater, go nuts.  Above water, you have to fall a certain height between each jump before you can jump again, and if you are under a sandfall, you immediately despin and cannot respin until you land.

[fxblue]

Kind of wish I knew that about 15 minutes ago :blush:, but thanks anyway.

Honestly, I found revisiting Maridia with spacejump off and screw on to be much more enjoyable. The only exception is the giant sandfall room where it takes a bit of controlling your momentum otherwise you will end up under the platforms but beyond that, cruised through pretty much every room without ever needing spacejump. There's required SJ areas but other than that it was a breeze and not nearly as slow and boring as it was without screw. Not to mention all of the invincible purple pirates you couldn't even damage without early screw.

Early screw even lets me skip grapple areas and cross some more annoying jumps like this one when it was easy to fall off.


But eh even if you hate it, you can just turn it off.

[CaRmAgE]

Currently not in the mood for Tourian right now, due to what I went through finding the new Chozo Guardian locations and some expansions.  I'll let this sum up my pain:

Instead, you rewarded my ingenuity with magic invisible fuck-you blocks.

...although I had other issues than just this one, including spring-ball-into-bomb not providing extra oomph, the sudden loss of a charge in central Brinstar for no logical reason is what threw me for a loop.  I eventually caved in and turned on hints, and even then, I had trouble finding any of the Brinstar Guardians.

Space Jump is just as unresponsive as it was in the original.  It has two sets of "rules," for underwater and above water.  Underwater, go nuts.  Above water, you have to fall a certain height between each jump before you can jump again, and if you are under a sandfall, you immediately despin and cannot respin until you land.

I am well aware of that.  My problem was occasionally falling double the height of my jumps before I could space jump again.  It happens rarely, though, so it's not a huge issue.

UPDATE:


[spoiler=Tourian with a hint of rage]I now understand why there are so many complaints for this part.  Granted, after I understood how to somewhat combat Metroids, the energy I got back made up for the pain, and the majority of Tourian was OK, even though there were issues like:

1. Taking a Metroid that was already too fast in the original Redesign and making it even faster (to the point that I might as well start laying bombs before they even show up).
2. Despite #1, it was not a big deal in the original, because you could freeze Metroids at the exact same time they were dislodged from you.  In this one, not only can you not dislodge them unless you stun them, but you also cannot fire your weapon while they are attached.
3. Speaking of dislodging, 4-6 bombs?  You forgot you only gave us 3.
4. Stun one Metroid only to be grabbed by another, then by the time that one is stunned, the first one is on you again, and the combo continues.
5. Your treatment of Screw Attack in Tourian is violating invincibility frames.  I get damaged like 4 times a second by those big blue hoppers, because I can't get away without taking damage again.

However, the following makes Tourian completely unplayable (I needed a lot of luck and save states to get past it):

6. The feeding pit 3-Metroid rooms.  90% of the time I actually kill a Metroid, I can't even kill the second Metroid before the first Metroid's drops vanish.

I don't even know where to begin with this one.  A lot of tweaks would have to be made before this becomes even remotely playable.  Simply decreasing cool-down for SMs would not be enough.  Maybe not have them be on steroids, idk.[/spoiler]

[spoiler=Escape Sequence]I sorta kinda agree with your changes here.  Even though you wanted to make sure players had enough time to escape, even when making mistakes, I would agree that 25 minutes was overkill.  But 12?  It took me 5 1/2 minutes just to escape Tourian on my first attempt, so I had to restart.  Even when I did make it WITH saving the animals, I only had a little over a minute left to spare, which is too tight for such a long way to go.

13-14 minutes would be fairer, IMO.  Either that, or do something about that jump-through-a-door part.  It took me 4 tries (first time I didn't even know I had to jump) before I finally made the jump on my first escape attempt, because I kept hitting the ceiling in the previous room.[/spoiler]

[MetroidMst]

Above water, you have to fall a certain height between each jump before you can jump again, and if you are under a sandfall, you immediately despin and cannot respin until you land.

Unless something changed from 1.2, which is possible, this is actually not true. There are some sandfalls you get sent out of a spinjump, but not all. Only the ones where you might skip another 10 minutes of mindlessly going in a massive loop because lolredesignhasbeensofunalreadyyouwanttoplayitevenlonger. If it gains the player no advantage, you can keep your spin jump. (As of 1.2 of course)