IRC tune up?

[Lunaria]

So I was talking to James about this earlier over IRC and such, and he agreed to me making this topic.

So both me and him kinda agree (maybe others too?) that #Metconst have kinda gone downhill from where James (and me, but no one cares about what I think) think the place should be like.


So what we wonder is, what do you as a member of #Metconst, or future/old people that left, want the place to be like? What's the your vision for the channel? And does the channel live up to that vision?

Even more so, what do you expect of the user base, and what do you expect of the moderation team?


James wanted to say something that he thought about earlier, but he kinda lost track of what it was, maybe he can fill it in later.

Keep in mind that it would be for the better if you keep your post serious in this topic so people can review it later. (Not me of course, I just wanted to get the topic out there)


I will post my own views in a later post at a later time.

[Tyjet66]

Alright, here is my opinion:

IRC is a great place for hacking help and advice and feedback, but it also plays an important role and provides a social center for people with similar interests. I understand that IRC may have originally been created solely for the purpose of hacking and the topics that surround it but I feel that since we also use it as a social medium, it brings the community as a whole together.

I do feel that this method can be improved upon, mainly, when someone asks a serious question (I'm not talking about dicks today...) they should not be ridiculed as I have been a few times but should either get a reply that is helpful or have someone suggest how to answer that question (this comes into play if that question has never been done before.)

So, in summary, I enjoy IRC as it is now, but stricter control from moderators should be expressed if someone trying to elicit advice for a legitimate question is being heckled.

[FullOfFail]

I don't see anything wrong with the chatroom. If all we did was talk about hacking all the time it would probably be dead and nobody would bother coming in as much. If you throw a question out there, odds are that you'll get a reply, even if it's a "I really have no clue how to do that" response.

Different hackers excel in different areas and it's best to ask whomever is knowledgeable in said field. If it's more complicated send someone a PM so you can focus on whatever problem and not worry about other people interrupting your convo.

I view that chatroom more as a relaxing hanging out with your buddies type environment, and the forums for the serious business related activities. There's going to be differences of opinions and ultimately arguments between users occasionally, but that's just a part of life.

[Zhs2]

I do feel that this method can be improved upon, mainly, when someone asks a serious question (I'm not talking about dicks today...) they should not be ridiculed as I have been a few times but should either get a reply that is helpful or have someone suggest how to answer that question (this comes into play if that question has never been done before.)

I kinda wish this was the case in most places; one where people can say things as freely as they like is going to be exploited more often than one where moderation involves completely removing things that have been said, so of course it's going to be a bigger pain here than there.

So, in summary, I enjoy IRC as it is now, but stricter control from moderators should be expressed if someone trying to elicit advice for a legitimate question is being heckled.

This, but as much as I'd like to say that every case will be seen, handled, dealt with appropriately, who knows if any given mod will be active at the time?

So both me and him kinda agree (maybe others too?) that #Metconst have kinda gone downhill from where James (and I) think the place should be like.

lol. If James wanted it to be a totally different place, he would have constructed a fascist regime and banned everyone who didn't fit the schema a long time ago, regardless of what I might say or think. Yes, I agree that people might be jerks, but it doesn't really help if you're being a jerk who happens to be whining about getting rid of other jerks. If you don't like someone, ignore them. If someone says something that bothers you, feel free to not listen to that person. We can only do so much, you know.

[PY]

Yeah, your IRC room is pretty bad. Between "lolsorandum" people, and outright trolling, combined with frankly subpar moderation, I couldn't even stand being *in* the room, never mind talking in it.

[Lunaria]

lol. If James wanted it to be a totally different place, he would have constructed a fascist regime and banned everyone who didn't fit the schema a long time ago, regardless of what I might say or think. Yes, I agree that people might be jerks, but it doesn't really help if you're being a jerk who happens to be whining about getting rid of other jerks. If you don't like someone, ignore them. If someone says something that bothers you, feel free to not listen to that person. We can only do so much, you know.

Too be fair, I did not make this topic so you could tear apart my post and every other one. It's more meant in an open way so people can say what they want without getting talked down too... this assumes that the posts are serious, of course.

And too be even more fair, I don't know what James want the place to be like, but from what I gathered when we talked, it's not what it is now. I'm quite sure both me, him, and you have very different views of it.

And to make things perfectly clear, I did not make this topic to whine. I made this topic to see the community opinion on the chat room, and that includes the whole community that wants to take part, not those who speaks with the loudest voices.

Mind you, my own views which I will post later may or may not include a lot of whining, but that's beside the point. As that post would be my own opinions, not the topic sake.

[Parabox]

Nein mann. Ich will kein Fascismus. Ich will noch ein bisschen trollen. Komm shon, alter, alles ist doch in Ordnung? Lass uns noch ein bisschen trollen.

[Phazar]

I remember just how beautiful #metconst was in its early days because at that time it seemed like a nice break from the douchery that is #metroid(and in some cases, #jzd as well).  Back in those days, believe it or not, the channel was ACTUALLY USED FOR HACK HELP.  Yes, we talked in a "hang-out" way too, but there was way more hack discussion then there is now.  It was only natural that trolls would eventually come, so it may make IRC a better place if James or Zeke started to ban trolls/spammers/etc that just won't learn their lesson.  But ultimately I'm leaving it up to the ops to decide.

[interdpth]

#metconst has evolved from a lonely room to what is it today, a lively chatterbox of friends, information and etc.
It's perfect as it is.
There's plenty of social activity, hacking talk. I do admit the technical talks generally get taken to #jzd as Kej resides there, but other then that I see plenty of people getting help with hacking daily.
The fuss seems to come from people who don't spend a lot of time in #metconst(Yes, I realize you idle but you don't do spend a lot time with us.)
It's a fun place :D

[Masked_Felix]

I don't see a problem with the current channel. Seriously. I mean, I've been here for half a year pretty regularly with nary  a word on hacking, but last week at almost instant behest people were there walking me through how to code in Assembly. I made an A on my test because of it. After I'd learned, we talked about baseball and ice cream. It was the best. I like things just the way they are. People don't get blocked from getting help, so there's no problem. Leave the forum for the really serious business and let the IRC be a place to hook up in real time an ask questions and have fun both. Neither one hurts the other, so there's no reason to clamp down.

[JAM]

1. Less trolling.
2. Again, less trolling.
3. More moderation (I understand that no one can be there 24/7, but it should be at least more than now)
4. Give bans and warnings here to them who got multiple warnings there.

How I see it...
Chatroom should be contuniation of forum, something like hybrid of engine works and off-topic where people can talk about hacking, speedrunning, playing, metroid in general or anything else.

Most thing I don't like
New people are playnig some hacks, reading some topics, joining community, entering chatroom, got trolled, quit community.

[Masked_Felix]

1. Less trolling.
2. Again, less trolling.
3. More moderation (I understand that no one can be there 24/7, but it should be at least more than now)
4. Give bans and warnings here to them who got multiple warnings there.

There's people almost always there. Plus, you'll have to give me a live demonstration of what you consider trolling, because I sure as sin don't see much of it going on. Certainly not anything that hinders the activity.

How I see it...
Chatroom should be contuniation of forum, something like hybrid of engine works and off-topic where people can talk about hacking, speedrunning, playing, metroid in general or anything else.

That's what it is. Unless you're talking about making it as stiff and Turn-Based as a forum. IRC is an entirely different rhythm than a message board, and trying to level the two is going to cause failure to at least one. Sure, keep your big rules, but a relaxed, live feel needs to remain for an IRC to thrive. You can still ask questions and get answers in that type of environment without being unduly disturbed.

Most thing I don't like
New people are playnig some hacks, reading some topics, joining community, entering chatroom, got trolled, quit community.

Who wants new members that are such web-weenies that they can't even decide to stick with the forum if the IRC rubs them the wrong way? That's like a hotel getting rid of all the room TV's because a few numb-skulls don't know how to turn it off when it bothers them.  Spending all your time coddling ten offended toddlers is totally not preferable to one person who can let a joke roll off their back. If it was some hardcore trolling garbage the scales would tip a different way, but I have to go by what I've seen and this place's declared "trolls" lash out with less force than my grandma. I've yet to see anything that should be taken as anything more than a playful tap on the shoulder before I caught wind of this big shenanigan.

I tell you in truth: This forum is where all the venom is.

[interdpth]

Masked Felix is a gangster. Yes, this is on topic as I fully agree with him.

JAM I'd also like examples of people who left because of trolling.

Also, from the beginning it's my job to troll people as the safety troll. Anyone who left because of me, was for the good of the community.

[Zhs2]

4. Give bans and warnings here to them who got multiple warnings there.

This doesn't really work, given that they are two completely different environments. I can see the channel as being an extension of the forum, but not a complete continuation. We're more likely to remove you for horsing around here than we are in the channel since everyone has their own styles of communicating, right?

[squishy_ichigo]

see, I'm a rulesfag, and I hate it when peeps blow off the rules. Saddly, I've been labeled a "fun killer" on irc these days because of that. Worst of all, is I don't even "fun kill" as much as I would like to.  Why?  Because as someone might have already mentioned in this topic (I only read a few posts so idk) #metconstians don't like the rules.  They like to troll, and when rules get put in place to prevent this, they ragequit.  And saddly, you can't have a community without people.

I can certainly see both sides of this "drama", especially since I'm somewhere in the middle of it, not truly on either side.  I like rules, but I also like this community. Its a love/hate relationship or something like that. :<

[Masked_Felix]

see, I'm a rulesfag, and I hate it when peeps blow off the rules. Saddly, I've been labeled a "fun killer" on irc these days because of that. Worst of all, is I don't even "fun kill" as much as I would like to.  Why?  Because as someone might have already mentioned in this topic (I only read a few posts so idk) #metconstians don't like the rules.  They like to troll, and when rules get put in place to prevent this, they ragequit.  And saddly, you can't have a community without people.

I can certainly see both sides of this "drama", especially since I'm somewhere in the middle of it, not truly on either side.  I like rules, but I also like this community. Its a love/hate relationship or something like that. :<

I'm going to give you guys my cell phone number. (214) 371-4335


When the next break out of rule-breaking that's causing members to ragequit happens, call me. The time doesn't matter. As soon as you even see it starting to boil, ring me up.  I have to witness just how heinous this channel becomes when I'm not around.

[interdpth]

see, I'm a rulesfag, and I hate it when peeps blow off the rules. Saddly, I've been labeled a "fun killer" on irc these days because of that. Worst of all, is I don't even "fun kill" as much as I would like to.  Why?  Because as someone might have already mentioned in this topic (I only read a few posts so idk) #metconstians don't like the rules.  They like to troll, and when rules get put in place to prevent this, they ragequit.  And saddly, you can't have a community without people.

I can certainly see both sides of this "drama", especially since I'm somewhere in the middle of it, not truly on either side.  I like rules, but I also like this community. Its a love/hate relationship or something like that. :<

Generally we're joking when we call you the fun killer.
Tough love and all <3

[Quietus]

I've only popped in a few times, so can't really comment on how it 'is', but how I'd like it to be:

Conversation of whatever, whenever, but when somebody (anybody) enters, and asks a legit question, they should either be helped, or told to try later, as the current participants don't know, or can't help right now.  There will always be people who frequent it, and this is fine, but when somebody actually goes there for help, then that's what they're after - help.  Not conversation, or anything else.  If they wish to chat as well, then so be it.

[Waker]

Agreed with Quietus, Felix and Inter.

If someone is requesting help, they should get it according to wtf is going on at the current moment. If nobody can help then somebody should say so, or just tell them to come back later.

Generally the chat is awesome as it is, and it follows the request I stated above.

TL;DR the entire thing above was redundant as #metconst is coolbro status already.

[herald83]

As one of the "new people", I feel like I should probably add my two bits, for what they're worth.  I usually tend to lurk on the IRC from time to time (less so recently but that's because of RL stuff).  I've asked a few questions here and there, and most of the time I get decent responses.  Once or twice I've been trolled, which isn't pleasant but let's be serious, this is the internet and if you can't handle the odd troll or two then you should just toss your router in the dumpster and stick to playing solitare.

I tend to get more info from the boards.  This is probably because I am totally new to hacking and most of my questions have already been answered and cataloged on the Docs.  Thanks to everyone for your help so far.  If things ever calm down, I might be able to get serious about hacking and come up with some real questions.

[Hiroshi Mishima]

To be fair, considering that the internet was not created with the intent to "troll" or "harass" people but rather to easily distribute information and communicate with people regardless of distance, one should not be required to either put up with said crap nor expect it. Certainly not from a chatroom that is supposed to be dedicated at its base level to the discussion and creation of ROM hacks.

The fact that there rarely seems to be any actual hacking discussion going on in there except for a few people from time to time, and the rest of the time is mostly just random, unrelated conversations and frequent trolling/baiting, seems to indicate that the chatroom is hardly serving its purpose.

I don't care that some people see it as a social extension of the message board. Primarily because we have a social section of the board known as the Community section, but also because there is inherently nothing wrong with talking about other things from time to time. What matters is that as has been said the way it stands many new people are turned away. I don't even wanna hear any bullshit about "Who wants new members that are such web-weenies that they can't even decide to stick with the forum if the IRC rubs them the wrong way?" because that is exactly the wrong kind of mentality one should have in a community. Not only that, but perhaps it is better that they do leave the forum, right? Or else they're just gonna drag it all over the forum when it's related to the chatroom, and I know how much some people here just hate when that happens. Heaven forbid anyone calls attention to a problem.

If you want the community to actually thrive beyond the dozen or so active members, you need to be both nicer to people and more understanding. Yes, if someone is a blatant douche bag and refuse to listen then they're clearly a problem and must be dealt with. However, that isn't the same as being a jerk to someone who is both unfamiliar with the rules (or the chatroom) and/or asks a sincere question that just happens to be really simple or very stupid. Not everyone is awesome with SMILE or ASM or any of the other big hacking tools, and invariably you are going to get people who do not know and would like to learn. But they aren't going to want much to do with us if they only ever see people being complete asses who seem more interested in harassing people than they are in helping them.

The fact that some people, such as Waker, feel the chatroom has a "coolbro" status would be further proof, as the chatroom shouldn't feel like the "cool people place" but rather the "community place". Yes, there is a difference. Likewise, the fact that some people are better at dealing with trolls is irrelevant. People shouldn't have to put up with trolling, that's why we have moderators and ops in the first place! To ensure that rules aren't being broken and that no one is trying to cause problems. I've been on the internet for over 16 years now and I still don't tolerate trolls nor am I afraid to actually say anything when I think something needs to be said, regardless of the consequences, because otherwise people are just turning a blind eye to a genuine issue.

And don't give me any of this "anonymous" bullshit, either. The Internet was meant to be a medium of communication just like the telephone, television, letters, and fax machines. There needs to be more enforcement of rules if that is what it takes to get the place and/or the people to shape up and conform to a higher standard of netiquette. I mean a lot of us here are supposed to be adults, yet there are times when it clearly feels like it is full of immature children and schoolyard bullies. If someone doesn't like following the rules, they can leave, no one can stop them. We shouldn't be encouraging people to leave because they DO follow the rules, but rather because they DON'T follow the rules. Perhaps it is time everyone realized that.

[zephyrtronium]

To be fair, considering that the internet was not created with the intent to "troll" or "harass" people but rather to easily distribute information and communicate with people regardless of distance

I thought everyone knew that the purpose of the internet was pworn.

The fact that there rarely seems to be any actual hacking discussion going on in there except for a few people from time to time

Maybe there is discussion unrelated to hacking because not everyone wants to hack or talk about hacks at all times of every day. I'd rather take a stupid insult than generate artificial conversation.

What matters is that as has been said the way it stands many new people are turned away.

Can you actually back up that "many" with examples? Off the top of my head, the only people I know who have been "turned away" from just the chat are you and Quietus, and no one from the entire community. At the same time, at least StarryEyedSurprise and Black Telomeres came to the forums after the chat. If at least as many people start on the forums because of the chat as are turned away from it but still stay on the boards, I'd say IRC is doing an excellent job.

[Parabox]

#projectbase

[Zhs2]

^ Very funny, Parabox.

Speaking of which, I banned Waker for a day today (from IRC) on the very same issue that Hiroshi brings up. I heartily agree that being offensive for the sake of being offensive is a bad thing to do, and while some people may PROCLAIM that we're coolbro status, I'm going to have to say no if what you do isn't brotherly at all. Full log here: http://zhs2.dyndns.org/furryhate.log

Bans to him if he replies to this message without a cool head.

[Quietus]

Off the top of my head, the only people I know who have been "turned away" from just the chat are you and Quietus

I don't remember saying I was ever put off the chat.  I'm just not a chat person.  I only have one person on Pidgin that I chat to regularly.  And by 'regularly' I mean once or twice a week.