Games can't be art (NOT Another Redesign Discussion)

[gunnargumpert]

Gunnar, you have a few file errors, and looks too much like redesign. I dislike redesign.  ._.

because of the physics? well, drewseph is a TASer - i understand his physics

Gunnar:
Use more slopes. Also, try to make rooms in your own, unique style. Don't make rooms that look like Redesigns.

well, i've nearly the same level design, drew has.


that's mybe the only reason, wha i always loved redesign.

the problem is, if i'm trying another style, i'm not as good as now. my style is "Paletes and Style like original Super Metroid, but more details"



i totaly understand, that you guys dislike this redesign thing, but what should i do? it's not possible to make my style like eris - the leveldesign is awsome, but i dislike the palettes and the geometry. i more and more looks like art - not a game.

that's very strange: I dislike most of the hacks, because the level design is not that creative. i know, hacking is very difficult.  :O_o:

[squishy_ichigo]

games can't be art?

I see this becoming a debate topic very soon....

[gunnargumpert]

no, of corse a game can be art, but rooms like in eris are more "paintings" than a room.

but rooms like in Gravy ore MockingBird are not art, they are just rooms - no art.



i like 50/50. i dislike the "just art" style, but also "boring room" style

drewseph also has dome art, but not unreal leveldesign like in eris. unfortunately there are no hacks, using a 50/50 style.


all hacks (well, Volta isn't bad, i like it!) are destroying the palettes (like orange water, mirrowed tiles.) ore looking boring (the main map of the original game, endles use of the same tile)

i just hate the most level design. only volta and redesign where hacks, i erev liked.

okay, temporus is also nice, but that's just luck: actualy i hate too changed palettes. temporus is an exception. grime "destroyed" the original level design, but his tiles ar turning me on.  :lol: (don't missunderstand this grime)


[spoiler]gunnar: Mmmmmeh. The level design itself isn't bad, but you've really gotta get over your Redesign fetish and start coming up with more of your own material. Try painting a tileset FROM SCRATCH without referencing any other tilesets. Draw from the animation. Or heavily edit Super Metroid's GFX, again, without looking at how other people have made edits. Surprise us.[/spoiler]

well, actualy, while i painted my tilesi looked X times at drewsephs tiles.

X=0

but you'r right, i already was thinking of a totaly new tileset compilation:
maybe i'll mix a few ceres tiles with crateria tiles and a nice "selfmade" palette.

ok, you guys remember the 25 missile shot door, i made with help of JAM? well, i'll change the 25 to something like 15-20 --> that's enough.

[squishy_ichigo]

Just out of curiosity, did you finish Eris gunnar?

[gunnargumpert]

finish what? making tha hack? ore playing through?

both: no

but i know the leveldesign, because i saw the full 1:1 map of the full game

[gunnargumpert]

It's fine to be inspired by another hack, but you need to express that inspiration with your own style.



Still, sorry to hear you lost your work to a virus. I lost 1/2 my work on my Nestroid hack after a hard drive failed. Man did that suck.

you're right, and I also want to get my own style, but even, if i try it, i'm not getting totaly rid of this style - maybe, it's the only style, you should use, if you use orininal tiles

I'll just trying my own design now, nothing else. if my style is still looking to much like redesign - i can't do anything - but I'll try it  :wink:


oh, i'm sorry, i know, how you feelt.

[Katelyn]

because of the physics?

What do physics have to do with your room looking like redesign?

[gunnargumpert]

because of the physics?

What do physics have to do with your room looking like redesign?

what a question  :whoa:!?

you sayd, you dislike redesign

[Katelyn]

Redesign sucks

Edit: Link fixed.

[Phazar]

Haha, you got that link wrong, Shadox.  The "url=" part should have the link after it, not the text.

Edit: Argh, pagebreak!  [spoiler][/spoiler]

[Kasel]

One thing I must say...
Redesign does NOT suck.  It was the game that inspired me to even begin hacking but using it to design your rooms...I must say i agree that you should invent your own style.

[gunnargumpert]

The morph ball is just retarded, with it being so slow. And I can only wall jump on certain walls? WTF?

About to hard physics: yes, this physics are only good for making TASes - to hard for realtimeruns. --> Win1

About your Quote:
to slow? - god dam, learn, how to make the mockball - than it's fast enough. --> Fail1
walljump is possible only on walls with grip - that's making the game a lot more real --> Fail2

One thing I must say...
Redesign does NOT suck.  It was the game that inspired me to even begin hacking but using it to design your rooms...I must say i agree that you should invent your own style.

yeah, a great hack - the best leveldesign ever....
about my own style: like i sayd: I'm working on it



Edit: Who moved this? I never sayd, games can't be art, i sayd, i hate it, if Supermetroid isn looking like a Painting - I hate hacks, if there is no touch of the original leveldesign.

[Crashtour99]

I've been contemplating whether or not to add to the debate here, so I'll just say this...
Redesign, it's level design perfectly matches the physics.  However you'll find 2 opinions on it.
"Average" players (such as myself) will think it sucks, because the physics make it stupidly hard and frustrating.  It's no fun to play a game when you spend 30 minutes or more trying to do a single move or get past one room.
"Professional" players who take the time to master the controls will think it's awesome and enjoy the challenge.
Point blank, it's a pro-hack, and fucking sucks ass for the average player.  I'll say one thing though, it's a lot more enjoyable when you don't drop like a 20 ton boulder, limited by the retarded bomb timer, or fly straight sideways off a wall when you walljump.

And Gunnar, it's a video game about an interstellar bounty hunter wearing an alien suit of armor...   Do you really want to argue about realism?   :pwuh:

[gunnargumpert]

And Gunnar, it's a video game about an interstellar bounty hunter wearing an alien suit of armor...   Do you really want to argue about realism?

good argument - looooooool!  :grin:
arguing about reality? better not  :lol:


yeah, at first i also got trubles, while trying to play this game. if this physics would be easyer, the hack maybe would be the best in the world. but, this physics are ONLY awsome, if you tas - realtime redesign realy sucks!

in my opinion, the physics would be strange enought, if the planets gravity is about 140% - 160%.

[Quietus]

I don't want to talk too much about Redesign, as it's all been said before, but the problem most people have with Redesign is the wall-jumping, which was deliberately made in a particular way to encourage the collection of the Hi-Jump boots.  The main game is fairly well structured as far as necessary item collection is concerned, and most of the complaints I have seen are aimed at this or the higher difficulty, but I never found the difficulty to be any higher than that of the original game.  When I first played Super Metroid, I found that I would be low on health, died on bosses, and so on, and this was no different with Redesign.  I often feel that people compare it as a game on the same level as Super Metroid, which most of us know inside out, and have no difficulty in playing, which seems a little skewed.

Lastly, people complain about the hell's run, but since there's a save room RIGHT before it, I never saw this as a problem.

I don't mind if people were offering a criticism after giving it as much time as they invested in Super, but it seems that most play it for an hour or so, and then quit.  If you'd have done this with Super, you'd never have finished that either.

Each to their own, I guess.

[Lunaria]

No matter what way you look at things, I find no enjoyment in having to kill enemies with a pea shooter.

But, regardless, Redesign is a great hack no matter what way you look at it. Thing is it's just not for everyone... and I'm one it's not for.

[squishy_ichigo]

How the hell did this turn into a Redesign topic? It started as an art debate....

Redesign is well designed, and with the original tiles, it is the best as far as design goes.  But these days its all about custom/ripped gfx, so why are we talking about Redesign?

Oh yeah, gunnar started this debate, nvm. I can take a guess why the topic changed....

[gunnargumpert]

How the hell did this turn into a Redesign topic? It started as an art debate....

Oh yeah, gunnar started this debate, nvm. I can take a guess why the topic changed....

yo didn't thing about this, right?  :grin:

[Phazar]

I honestly don't see what the debate is about anymore.  It may have started out as one about games and art(started by gunnar, nonetheless), but the original topic that got this split is gone now, and all we have is a bunch of people arguing whether Redesign is good or not.  I really don't care about people's opinions of Redesign, as long as I myself like it(or hate it, I really don't care).  And with that, I am going to sit back and watch how long this topic lasts....

[squishy_ichigo]

pfft, I'll smack the next fucker who brings up redesign, how about THEM APPLES!

So, back on track.  When I'm playing a hack, I want to see some nice tilework.  If its shoddy, I'll mostly likely be turned off.

* squishy_ichigo really needs to go back and fix Pantheon.... ugggh

So to me, the 'art' part of Metroid hacks is very important.  Not to say that room design isn't important, as it is.  But your whole "iris to muh art, no room!" argument is completely bullshit gunnar. If you'd sit down and PLAY the game, you'd see the rooms are very well designed, and that the "art" of the game is there to immerse yourself into the game.

Games don't need to not have art, and games don't need to not have good room design. They should have both, and as good as possible. This is what distinguishes the good from the bad.
Can't wait to see your long winded explanation of how I'm wrong gunnar. In fact I crave your usual perplexing argument, come! HAVE AT YOU!

[interdpth]

Redesign sucks!  It's the truth!

[Zhs2]

but the original topic that got this split is gone now

Not until Friday!

[Phazar]

but the original topic that got this split is gone now

Not until Friday!

By "topic", I was referring to the topic of games being art.  Now it's just another Redesign thread.

[squishy_ichigo]

* squishy_ichigo smacks interdpth and Phazar

fuckers, can't you read?

"Re: Games can't be art (NOT Another Redesign Discussion)"
stfu or gtfo!

[Lunaria]

So to me, the 'art' part of Metroid hacks is very important.  Not to say that room design isn't important, as it is.  But your whole "iris to muh art, no room!" argument is completely bullshit gunnar. If you'd sit down and PLAY the game, you'd see the rooms are very well designed, and that the "art" of the game is there to immerse yourself into the game.

On the aspect on what is "art" though, well... Your mileage may vary