Hot Takes Discussion

[Exister]

I have always felt that a missile door should take the ammo of one pack to open. Just feels right, and lends itself to ammo management well.

[starlightintheriver]

In my mind, anything between 1 and 5 is acceptable, but then again, that assumes that you get 5 missiles per pack. I've only played one hack or fangame where opening a missile door requires more missiles than you get in a single pack, that being Metroid Planets on Hard. it's, uh, really awkward to open up the first few missile doors in Planets, especially the one on Zebeth that blocks Bombs.

[RT-55J]

Over the Moon also has missile doors that take more than one missile tank to open, mainly as a way to eke out a longer progression sequence in the early game.

On the other hand, Junkoid has no missile doors. (waow (based based based based based based based based based based based based based based based based))

[alexman25]

On the other hand, Junkoid has no missile doors. (waow (based based based based based based based based based based based based based based based based))

I actually think missile doors are super cool thematically, and useful for exploration

On that first point, it feels like the area is more well-shielded and protected in-universe. Gives the vibe that you're breaking in. I like to basically flood my penultimate areas with them (the final area gets regular doors because that oozes confidence on the part of the boss residing there I feel) Though, this could be also done by making something like charge beam doors (Though those feel incredibly arbitrary (and yucky))

For the second point, it's a useful marker in hubs to highlight which rooms you've already been to without having to look at the map (I think, ideally, Metroid is at its best when looking at the map to decide where to go is minimized). Though, this could be also done by making a door type that just changes color after you enter it once (Though that feels more arbitrary)

Though, I'm content with Junkoid not having them, since shielded blast doors fit way better in a sci-fi setting

[RT-55J]

Charge Beam doors are our ultimate punishment for rejecting the Gospel of the Five Missile Door.

Unlike single-missile doors, multi-missile doors require the player to pause for a beat, giving them time to consider what could be beyond the next door. Charge Beam doors are a way of restoring that pause for a beat, but the consideration is instead replaced by a brief annoyance.

(On the other hand, one thing I do enjoy about doors in the MercurySteam games is when some of them take slightly longer to open the first time because of disuse.)

[starlightintheriver]

I have to be honest, i don't really see what's so annoying about using the Charge Beam that isn't annoying about using Missiles? Is it that you now have less missiles to defend yourself with in the next room?

[RT-55J]

It has nothing to do with the resources required. I just really hate the kinesthetics of the charge beam in that context, and the fact that I usually shoot the door with an uncharged shot first before realizing it's not a normal door.

Anyhow, if you want some especially esoteric door knowledge, the various blast shields in Metroid Dread produce subtle ambient sound effects. I never knew that until I was watching a speedrunner labbing out ways to clip through those doors.

[starlightintheriver]

I suppose I can see that, haha. You don't have to hold down any buttons.

I remember noticing that in SR too, in fact it was pretty hard not to notice in SR. Missile and Super locks in particular make a very noticeable... barrier sound effect or something i dont really know how to describe it

[alexman25]

I have to be honest, i don't really see what's so annoying about using the Charge Beam that isn't annoying about using Missiles? Is it that you now have less missiles to defend yourself with in the next room?

For me personally, missile doors (at least as a progression obstacle) are only one degree of separation from being a boring lock and key upgrade. The ammo requirement adds some genuine interest to it (particularly in games where ammo count matters more), whereas charge beam (and other beam doors) is just "You have this beam, now you can open this door." I think trying to slot charge beam in as a progression item is a fundamental mistake. As for regular beam doors, there's far more interesting progression blocks you can make for beams.

What I also like about missile doors over charge doors is that you get to open them faster later in the game by using supers if you want.

[RT-55J]

Another hot take: In the Metroid games where the Power Bombs are the great, final item in the progression sequence, they should be able to destroy every kind of block and open every kind of door.

[starlightintheriver]

I think I agree with the take of "Trying to slot charge beam in as a progression item is a mistake", but at the same time, Super had a couple of bosses that couldn't be killed if you didn't have Charge and enough resources, and one of them locked you in so you couldn't backtrack to find more. I wonder if later games making Charge a progression item was an effort to ensure that couldn't happen again... not like it mattered much in SR, since i don't think there are any bosses in that game that can be hurt by charged but not uncharged shots. If that's the case, though, i think the best solution to this problem is to do what Prime 2 and 3 do, making them part of your starting kit so there's absolutely no chance of missing or skipping them.

Another thing I'll say is that i miss the era of major items that aren't required for progression. I have some guesses for why they got phased out (perhaps to make lategame difficulty balancing easier?) but i still think they had their place. When I first played Super, even though I knew where Plasma was because I had a guide, i gave up on trying to get it because i had such a hard time controlling Space Jump lmao

[RT-55J]

I wonder if later games making Charge a progression item was an effort to ensure that couldn't happen again... not like it mattered much in SR, since i don't think there are any bosses in that game that can be hurt by charged but not uncharged shots. If that's the case, though, i think the best solution to this problem is to do what Prime 2 and 3 do, making them part of your starting kit so there's absolutely no chance of missing or skipping them.

Yeah, this is why I made charge and some missiles part of the starting kit in TOI (see also: Charge and Bombs in the Y-Fasters). With how open the hack was, I wanted to make sure there was no way for the player to enter the final area mathematically unequipped.

[alexman25]

I think I agree with the take of "Trying to slot charge beam in as a progression item is a mistake", but at the same time, Super had a couple of bosses that couldn't be killed if you didn't have Charge and enough resources, and one of them locked you in so you couldn't backtrack to find more. I wonder if later games making Charge a progression item was an effort to ensure that couldn't happen again... not like it mattered much in SR, since i don't think there are any bosses in that game that can be hurt by charged but not uncharged shots. If that's the case, though, i think the best solution to this problem is to do what Prime 2 and 3 do, making them part of your starting kit so there's absolutely no chance of missing or skipping them.

Another thing I'll say is that i miss the era of major items that aren't required for progression. I have some guesses for why they got phased out (perhaps to make lategame difficulty balancing easier?) but i still think they had their place. When I first played Super, even though I knew where Plasma was because I had a guide, i gave up on trying to get it because i had such a hard time controlling Space Jump lmao

Yeah, personally, I think charge being required in SM was one of the game's biggest mistakes. It's not hugely a problem, but the potential to get softlocked at Mother Brain if you don't have charge is no good

I do also miss non-essential majors. I believe that they just wished to go farther in SM's direction of item-based progression style because it was seen as an improvement compared to NEStroid's more lackadaisical approach.

Yeah, this is why I made charge and some missiles part of the starting kit in TOI (see also: Charge and Bombs in the Y-Fasters). With how open the hack was, I wanted to make sure there was no way for the player to enter the final area mathematically unequipped.

I very much appreciate the effort for this; it was one of the most balanced feeling final areas I've seen in a hack as a result!

[alexman25]

Long Beam is a good upgrade idea. Pea-shooter default Power Beam is not bad game design. This take is admittedly more lukewarm, but I see a lot of people genuinely criticize NEStroid/Zero Mission over this. It's certainly a little bit strange in-universe, but no moreso than random tunnels behind arbitrary super missile blocks. It can be a bit frustrating to play with, but that's the entire point of a game about upgrading your player character's abilities. I'm of the belief that there are no bad upgrades/restrictions in a Metroid-like; only bad utilization of them. Just because a character CAN be more powerful at the start of a game doesn't mean they should. Nor does it mean they shouldn't, either. Anything can be done well, and I'd argue Long Beam is done well.

On a similar note, lack of diagonal (and downward) aiming and crouching is also not bad game design. It makes sense why it was added later, but it's not necessarily an objective good, as a lot of enemy encounter patterns are recycled from earlier games which expected you to take a direct horizontal/vertical line of sight with the enemy, but now you don't need to. It also makes bombs basically worthless as a weapon when your beam you already had can do the same thing but better. Morph ball is also heavily nerfed in its combat utility, as not only is its best offensive option supplemented by something else, but the requirement to stop and double-tap down removed its use in evasion where you can instantly shrink your hitbox with little to no penalty to horizontal movement (but still a penalty if you need to jump or shoot something, so you have to be smart with it)

[KirbEastEnd]

I think y'all are being a bit harsh on this guy. Way I see it, they're just looking to hear the opinions of people who deviate from the norm and decided to take a humorous tone about it.

As for my own hot take; I find NEStroid to genuinely be on-par with the other 2D Metroids !

thank you.