Metroid Other ZM - A Metroid Zero Mission Hack

[greenspectre]

So from a design perspective we go from something being optional early, to required later, but then shown again as a requirement in an optional path, which feels odd.

I don't really understand what you mean by this? What's so special about a mechanic that is required for some parts of a game, yet otherwise optional?

I understand your hack requires intimate knowledge of the original to progress, but some puzzles felt more annoying than fun or intuitive, and some simply encouraged the player to stay away, convincing me many times that I was not in the right area even if I was.

Intuitive Puzzles aren't the most difficult, though. Their nature (being intuitive) makes sure of it. I suppose you mean things like those invisible missile blocks in Ridley (annoying) or the Metroid room in Chozodia (encouraged the player to stay away)?

So when I'm talking about something being optional early but required later, I am meaning to say that it is confusing as the player to know what skills are expected of you. In the original SM, when you acquire an item, you generally are called upon to use that item to get out of whatever situation you are in, in an immediate sense. For instance, when a new player finally makes that dashing jump in Norfair to get the grapple beam (did anyone else get stuck trying to figure that part out on their first playthrough back in 1990-something? I sure as hell did), you are immediately called upon to use that grapple beam in the way the designers want you to in order to get out. And you do so under safe circumstances. First in a regular room with no hazards, then in a room with water, which is annoying to backtrack through but not lethal, and then when you are free from the room you are free to use that skill over lava pits and spikes and the like, which are much more dangerous. I would suggest, since bomb-boost-crumble-block jumps are required for your hack, that perhaps you design a puzzle to get out of the bombs room that forces the player to try that. Something where the player can easily tell they could go farther if they could JUST get over that one crumble block. That way, the player understands early on that this is a required skill, and when they get to Kraid

[spoiler]
and have to use that skill to get to Kraid's room, they don't shy away from that crumble block. There's nothing keeping you in that room, and an observant player will notice that the shaft you fall down after crumbling is only 1 tile wide, but it is far too easy to exit that room and not give the crumble block a second look. If you are going to use that as your first way of saying that this skill is required, maybe it would be better to force the player to have speed booster to exit the room, rather than letting them exit and not come back. Keep them where they need to be until they understand.
[/spoiler]

Again, that's just my suggestion. Perhaps I was off in saying it's not right to show the skill as optional earlier, but required later, and the better message is that if a skill is required to progress, it may be wiser to give them less options in the FIRST room that it's REQUIRED in, in order to better encourage them to use that skill.

My mention of intuitive puzzles more applied to things required to complete the game. The Metroid room is a good example, as are the missile blocks in Ridley and most of my complaints may stem from my lack of intimate familiarity with Zero Mission coming into this hack (I never would have found my way to zipline activator without your help) as I understand that a lot of the hidden passages that I felt were unfairly hidden were somehow tied into the original game.

[makazuwr32]

Maka, did you update your rom? Newest patch has prevented that.

yes. you are right. i did that in previous patch. i even didn't know that game was updated...
Also i need to say that i found way to the early PB without any helixes and other stuff. only hints from this thread and power bombs from completed game.

And with this i have 1 question: do we have a chance now to get early Screw attack? (maybe additional supersecret place where we can get it?)

[greenspectre]

If you were able to find early PBs using PBs from a completed game, then I suppose that means they are hidden well enough for the creator's tastes.

[spoiler]
As for the screw attack question, there is an additional screw attack power up in Norfair, and it requires all 3 unknown items, as well as some ingenuity to find the room itself.
[/spoiler]

[Luce Seyfarth]

Thanks greenspectre, I now see that you talk about the player getting confused, which I can understand. Your idea about the room before Kraids is really good, actually, so I will block the right exit with a pair of speed blocks/ Space Jump blocks.

I'm sorry, but
[spoiler]
the Metroid room in Chozodia
[/spoiler]
is just there to troll :P
It is designed to be one of those "oh, does he REALLY want me to do that?" moments. Sorry, I just couldn't resist.

Chozodia in general is the most drastically changed area with most of the ruins part of it being completely different, so your experience with Zero Missions layout won't help as much there.

If you were able to find early PBs using PBs from a completed game, then I suppose that means they are hidden well enough for the creator's tastes.

Also i need to say that i found way to the early PB without any helixes and other stuff. only hints from this thread and power bombs from completed game.

I think maka means the deducing process I described earlier(?), combined with one of the above posts mentioning Super Missiles, which narrows down the possibilities dramatically. Still, well done not using Double Helix :)
Would've been nice if you had used spoiler tags as well, though (I know I should have said that earlier...)


I am now in the process of implementing a new switch for
[spoiler]
early Full Suit
[/spoiler]
, after which I will add the other changes.

Also I had a really awesome idea for some time now, which I will finally begin to implement soon. It will span the whole game and will be selectable from the file selection screen. I am not going to say anything more for the time being, though. It will require multiple new ASM functions and a bit of redesign of some rooms and thus take a while longer to be completed.

[greenspectre]

Truth be told, I don't think the

[spoiler] metroid room [/spoiler]

is THAT much of a turn-off. Yes I ran in there and ran back out when I saw them, but I did eventually try to see if I could get through. Once you step a bit into the room it becomes obvious that the obstacles are meant to be avoided, not destroyed. I'd say it's like a heat room without Varia- encourages you to stay away, but you're too curious (or eventually desperate) not to try.

Looking forward to see the changes you have brewing!

[makazuwr32]

If you were able to find early PBs using PBs from a completed game, then I suppose that means they are hidden well enough for the creator's tastes.

Also i need to say that i found way to the early PB without any helixes and other stuff. only hints from this thread and power bombs from completed game.

I think maka means the deducing process I described earlier(?), combined with one of the above posts mentioning Super Missiles, which narrows down the possibilities dramatically. Still, well done not using Double Helix :)
Would've been nice if you had used spoiler tags as well, though (I know I should have said that earlier...)

I read hints about super missle block only after i already found the way.

...only hints from this thread...

i mean only all hints before my previous message (with a little amount of red text)

[Luce Seyfarth]

I've uploaded version 3.7 just now. That hidden route in Brinstar is now fixed (Just try to get by without Unknown Items...) also Power Grip can now be used there. Although...

I've also redesigned the top right part of Kraid.

I didn't find a way to double Power Bomb damage yet. Next update will probably include that...
When I get back from vacation, I will also start working on my new idea. Next update will be 4.1, then.

[Altheaas]

@Luce Seyfarth
First, I want to thank you for the work you've put into this! :) You've done an excellent job with this hack! So far, it's provided me with an engaging experience and I want to continue working on it more when I have the time.

Second, I want to apologize for the massive wall of text lol.

As for my experience, well.. I've had... ambivalent feelings. The overall feeling is overwhelmingly good. That is undeniable, and I don't want anything else I say here to indicate anything short of that. I'll go into more detail.

There have been times where I've felt challenged, engaged, immersed... I've felt like I was Samus. A lonely bounty hunter on a hostile world. Nothing but me and my missiles to watch my back. Danger around every corner- every battle was a puzzle in itself. Just like I used to with this series. It invoked that feeling of mystery- especially with a strange sense of familiarity, only to be thrown curveballs and twists on what you thought you knew was going to happen. It went on to illicit a more engaging pull. It's difficulty was somewhat shocking- but part of the appeal. I became determined to not just outgun my enemies, but outsmart them. Starting me off in the hostile Crateria, a foreign and dangerous land, first, spreading my roots and gathering bearings.. exploring an abandoned Chozo temple- "what could be inside this sacred place that I just know I can break into once I have the tools?"- fighting off fast and powerful Geemers, desperate to escape massive carnivorous fish and find an actual long-range weapon, only to go on and find myself at the classic starting point, feeling more comfortable and like, "This is where I start my mission."

Then there have been times where I've felt, for lack of a better word, cheated. Several times I've gone through what felt like were extremely harrowing environments/puzzles/battles only to find.. a locked door. I think someone mentioned earlier on this thread that sometimes you'd get to certain environments unsure if that's simply what you wanted us to go through or if we were simply unprepared and should come back later. This has happened to me several times- and while this happens in most of these types of games, I feel like this particular hack puts you through a lot before you realize whether or not your path is viable.

At one point, through a little bit of infinite bomb jumping (which, to my understanding was required to beat the game, so.. I wasn't trying to sequence break, I just thought it was where I needed to go,) I found myself in Chozodia (quite early, I'm sure.) At first I thought I just needed the speedbooster to do anything, but I found a small brick I could break. I continued through, battling very powerful enemies for this point in the game. Finally, I get to a room with four of those flying electric balls. One of the doors has a gray lock. Here, I thought "Oh man! This is like a crazy miniboss fight before finding some kind of upgrade or something!"

Despite having full health (which was only 99 Energy,) they could kill me in two hits- one, if it was solid (because there was electricity left behind. They were also fast.) Since they took 3 missiles to kill, and I only had 10 missiles, I had to hope one of them dropped missiles or I literally could not kill them because I had no charge beam. Eventually I kept going back into the hallway full of the red zeela things, killing them until I got missiles. It took about 10 clearings but eventually I got 2. 2. But, 12/4=3 so if I didn't miss, I could kill them.

Full on energy, "fully stocked" on missiles, I save state and prepare for a frantic battle. After 6 or 7 tries, I managed to defeat them all- to be rewarded with... a small energy orb. The door didn't unlock. The other door needed Super Missiles. There were no evident hidden passages (and I infinite bomb jumped against every wall.) The entire area that actually was accessible- was accessible for nothing.

As of right now, I've put a couple hours into it and I'm now stuck in Kraid. Well, I don't know if I'm "stuck" because there's probably more than a few places I can infinite bomb jump into or something somewhere in the world, but I don't know what to do. I have several save states. One of them puts me after acquiring the Speed Booster in that lower area that I can't seem to get out of whatsoever (blocked by a powerbomb door and an unknown item block.) The other is prior to dropping down to that lower area, the only place in Kraid that seems novel and accessible is the area shown in a recent trailer, right before the hallway leading to the save room. But nothing seems to actually help. Maybe I need to leave, I don't know. It's late, and I'm tired. I'll check when I get time to play. But I haven't gotten anything new since the Power Grip (which I eventually gave into despite being very intrigued about finding this "special Varia suit.")

Though, speaking of which... I feel like the chances of me actually getting that upgrade are infinitesimal, simply because it would block off the normal Varia suit. I still have no energy tanks and I'm rather tired of dying in two hits. From what I remember, the Varia suit provides some extra, much-needed defense.

Maybe it sounds like I'm just bitching. (Excuse the language.) I'm not trying to do that. I've had a lot of fun with this hack. But I think it has a ton of potential it isn't quite meeting yet. There are just some things that seem frustrating simply for the sake of being frustrating, and this is not the same thing as hard.

If I could make a suggestion- one particularly drawing aspect to these types of games- "Metroidvania" games, if you will, is it's rewarding aspect. These games generally reward you in two different ways:

One is they make you feel smart. You find obstacles and "get lost," but ultimately find the way, progress, solve the puzzle, etc. This generally gives you an "Ah-ha!" feeling, a feeling like you've "figured it out." This hack has given me this, more than a few times. But also a few times it hasn't had that. A few times I've known exactly what I need to do, but I have to try over and over and over again due to minute differences in each attempt (possibly out of your control, like an enemy AI.) This can easily get frustrating, because instead of a "Yes! I figured it out!" feeling, you get a "I never wanna have to do that shit again" feeling. And that's not exactly fun. It's more.. tedious.

Even if these types of puzzles exist- perhaps they could be made in such a way that regardless of when you get to them, if you manage to get through them, you get some type of reward- even if it's just a missile tank or something. It really, really sucks to get through something really hard only to find you wasted your time. It makes the entire thing feel like a waste of time.

Secondly, and I say this is second only because of how integral the puzzle solving aspect of these games are- is they make you feel strong. Not always at first- in fact, they may often start remarkably hard. Which was why I was, for a while, ok with the difficulty I've run into so far. And to an extent, I'm still ok with it. But I don't know how much longer I can put up with it. With only 99 Energy in an environment where there are enemies dealing 50 damage- and there's multiple of them.. things can get messy. Now when there's multiple enemies and each one of these enemies takes 20 shots to kill.. things just get frustrating.

Yes, I have missiles. But I tend to save these missiles for when I have to fight gigantic Sidehoppers, or when I enter a room and get swarmed with some kind of flying things that will probably kill me in very few hits. When I do use them, I end up getting into these kinds of situations unprepared and overwhelmed. I'm sure I'll eventually become more powerful, but as it stands, I often don't feel like a "badass bounty hunter." I feel like a little bitch, hoping the next enemy will drop a small health orb so the beeping will stop.

I remember earlier in this thread you said that the "charge beam is overrated." Well, if it's overrated, you should give it to us sooner. Upgrades like the charge beam play heavily into "feeling powerful," and there are advantages to the pseudo-screw attack and being able to fire one shot with quadruple power (such as when you have a very short window to attack, and multiple shots will put you in danger.)

I'm not trying to discredit your level design- only provide suggestions I think might make the experience more enjoyable to your audience.

But as I first said: I think you've made a great piece of work here and I definitely want to put more time into it and to appreciate it for what it is.

I hope your vacation is going well! :)

[spoiler]Also if anyone could help me out with my Kraid predicament? That'd be awesome lol. But maybe I just need rest.[/spoiler]

[Luce Seyfarth]

Hey, thanks for the input Altheaas :)

Don't worry about walls of text, as long as it's as well structured as yours ;)

Vacation's already over since two weeks now, sadly, and I've since been pretty busy working, studying, writing my bachelor's thesis and wrapping up my software project - but thanks anyway, for as short as the vacation was, it was quite relaxing doing nothing related to computers at all for a while.

As you might guess there was no time left to continue hacking ZM. Seriously, after dealing with ACT-R for quite some time now, searching around assembly functions in an old GBA game can be quite relaxing, too -.-



There are some interesting notes in your post and parts of them make me very curious:

At one point, through a little bit of infinite bomb jumping (which, to my understanding was required to beat the game, so.. I wasn't trying to sequence break, I just thought it was where I needed to go,) I found myself in Chozodia (quite early, I'm sure.) At first I thought I just needed the speedbooster to do anything, but I found a small brick I could break. I continued through, battling very powerful enemies for this point in the game. Finally, I get to a room with four of those flying electric balls. One of the doors has a gray lock. Here, I thought "Oh man! This is like a crazy miniboss fight before finding some kind of upgrade or something!"
(...)

At first I actually thought you somehow found your way to upper Chozodia (the ruins part) by just using bomb jumps, which if you did would be a pretty large oversight by me. Then I noticed you describe a room belonging to the wrecked ship part :)
...It's true. If you would've had another upgrade (Speed Booster or Super Missile), this detour would not have been for naught. To be fair, only one of the doors is actually greyed out (in rooms where you have to defeat enemies to open them, they all lock you in a room until you do so), but I can understand where your idea comes from because its a common used mechanic all over games of this type.
I think that your following suggestion:

Even if these types of puzzles exist- perhaps they could be made in such a way that regardless of when you get to them, if you manage to get through them, you get some type of reward- even if it's just a missile tank or something. It really, really sucks to get through something really hard only to find you wasted your time. It makes the entire thing feel like a waste of time.

is indeed a good one. Thankfully, there aren't many areas like this in the game. Actually, I am trying to think of one just now, because you mention this situation happening in other areas, too.
Let's see... You can't leave Brinstar until you've got Bombs, and when you do it is entirely possible to get to the end of one path (Kraid or Norfair -> Ridley) and get an Item there. You happened to take exactly the one route that is blocked off until a bit later - one for which I actually salute you because it's a really good idea. I think I will put one of Chozodias Energy Tanks there for curious players like you to find. Heh, now it reminds me of that one passage in Metroid Prime where you venture to the crashed frigate without Gravity Suit... Only not as far off the way forward.

I would gladly like to hear you out on areas you couldn't progress in. I don't think there are any where one couldn't find a way forward, but you never know.

The other thought I have is... Yes, I know this is a game, a Metroidvania in fact and I know that process you describe and love this concept as much as anyone here. But, sometimes I think: What if one of those locations would be real? Would there really be an Item tucked away in every corner that strays from the "correct" path? And, after all, this is the base of Space Pirates. Wouldn't it make more sense for them to also leave traps behind? (That's where my Idea of the fake Items came from) To hide stuff more carefully?

I think there is much room for debate on this topic and whether you like this design or not comes down to personal preferences most of the time. I am aware that most people find a... should I say "classic" Metroidvania more rewarding and fun. An experience that almost always is intuitive in some way or another.
Sadly(?) I happen to be a person who likes unconventional ideas. I don't claim to be a top-notch level designer by any means (In fact I think there are many areas I could improve if I just sat down and gave it way more thought). I happen to be one of those persons who played games like La-Mulana (one of the greatest addition to Metroidvanias ever, if you ask me) almost completely blind and without help, and those were chock-full of unconventional, unintuitive puzzles. They are fun to me, and to others, but not to the majority of Metroidvania players.

...But I start rambling here. Let's look at some more of your comments:

As of right now, I've put a couple hours into it and I'm now stuck in Kraid. Well, I don't know if I'm "stuck" because there's probably more than a few places I can infinite bomb jump into or something somewhere in the world, but I don't know what to do. I have several save states. One of them puts me after acquiring the Speed Booster in that lower area that I can't seem to get out of whatsoever (blocked by a powerbomb door and an unknown item block.) The other is prior to dropping down to that lower area, the only place in Kraid that seems novel and accessible is the area shown in a recent trailer, right before the hallway leading to the save room. But nothing seems to actually help. Maybe I need to leave, I don't know. It's late, and I'm tired. I'll check when I get time to play. But I haven't gotten anything new since the Power Grip (which I eventually gave into despite being very intrigued about finding this "special Varia suit.")

Though, speaking of which... I feel like the chances of me actually getting that upgrade are infinitesimal, simply because it would block off the normal Varia suit. I still have no energy tanks and I'm rather tired of dying in two hits. From what I remember, the Varia suit provides some extra, much-needed defense.

First, don't worry for the special Varia Suit, it is not designed to be found on the first playthrough (before its too late to get it, anyway). Power Grip and Varia Suit are a great help you probably shouldn't leave out at first, unless you either a) despise the Power Grip because it wasn't in the old Metroid games or b) you REALLY insist on getting that special suit.
By the way, Varia Suit only adds 20% damage reduction in this game (I haven't found a way to increase this rate yet, though I always wanted to at least swap it with the 30% reduction of the Gravity Suit since, after all, this IS the "Barrier Suit"). It greatly helps in the heated rooms of Norfair, though.

Second, you may have missed one or two missile blocks in a specific room in Kraid. You have to destroy two of them before descending to the bottom floor and getting the Speed Booster.
Your other option is to find an Item in Ridleys area first, but since you're already in Kraid...

(...)With only 99 Energy in an environment where there are enemies dealing 50 damage- and there's multiple of them.. things can get messy. Now when there's multiple enemies and each one of these enemies takes 20 shots to kill.. things just get frustrating.

Yes, I have missiles. But I tend to save these missiles for when I have to fight gigantic Sidehoppers, or when I enter a room and get swarmed with some kind of flying things that will probably kill me in very few hits. When I do use them, I end up getting into these kinds of situations unprepared and overwhelmed. I'm sure I'll eventually become more powerful, but as it stands, I often don't feel like a "badass bounty hunter." I feel like a little bitch, hoping the next enemy will drop a small health orb so the beeping will stop.

I remember earlier in this thread you said that the "charge beam is overrated." Well, if it's overrated, you should give it to us sooner. Upgrades like the charge beam play heavily into "feeling powerful," and there are advantages to the pseudo-screw attack and being able to fire one shot with quadruple power (such as when you have a very short window to attack, and multiple shots will put you in danger.)

The issue about Missiles is one I've specifically put on my list of things to do, as you may have read in an earlier post of mine. You are not the first complaining ;)
In the next version I release, most of the enemies will have alteres droprates.

The other issue you have (being stuck at 99 Energy) can be solved by exploring, though. There is at least one Energy Tank in Brinstar that you can reach, which would make your life much easier.
I won't add much to energy droprates because this is the one resource that naturally should be kept scarce, I think.

The last issue is in regards to the Charge Beam.
Yes, I know how incredibly useful the Charge Attack can be in Zero Mission. The reason I put it so late is
[spoiler]
because I've given it the added function of letting you combine beam weapons. Letting you not combine the Wave, Ice and Plasma Beams by default encourages actually thinking about which weapon you want to use - do you want to freeze enemies in your face or do you want to shoot them through walls? It also flows better with the original Metroid.
[/spoiler]
I feel this is just stressing it. And as another player mentioned, in the end not having Charge Beam actually wasn't much of an issue at all. That makes sense, because a) There are not many enemies which can be killed by Charge Attacking anymore and b) Just shooting normally is, in most cases, even faster in dealing damage then charging the beam first. Actually, it only allows you to take shots at bosses without having any Missiles, but since these give you plenty of Missiles anyway...



Finally, this post is getting way to long.
I think I am going to move that Energy Tank now.

And because I never mentioned it until now, thanks for all the positive feedback as well :)

[Altheaas]

The other thought I have is... Yes, I know this is a game, a Metroidvania in fact and I know that process you describe and love this concept as much as anyone here. But, sometimes I think: What if one of those locations would be real? Would there really be an Item tucked away in every corner that strays from the "correct" path? And, after all, this is the base of Space Pirates. Wouldn't it make more sense for them to also leave traps behind? (That's where my Idea of the fake Items came from) To hide stuff more carefully?

This I understand. I actually kind of like the fake items- they made me think more critically about whether or not that item was actually accessible- at one point I thought I stumbled upon early Super Missiles but before I even touched it I was like "Wait.. that was too easy." In the end I'm glad it was fake, especially since I think I needed to go through there anyways.

I happen to be one of those persons who played games like La-Mulana (one of the greatest addition to Metroidvanias ever, if you ask me) almost completely blind and without help, and those were chock-full of unconventional, unintuitive puzzles. They are fun to me, and to others, but not to the majority of Metroidvania players.

I just discovered the existence of this game this morning and I want to check it out. I do like games that make me think differently. That's why you'll find the things I complained about were not exactly the puzzle difficulty. So far I like what I've encountered in your hack, in regards to puzzle and level design. Like I said, I even like the difficulty.

I played Ori and the Blind Forest a few months back and I found it remarkable. It was, quite honestly the polar opposite of what this hack is in regards to puzzles- most in Ori were simple platforming obstacles- but I loved its relentless difficulty.

If La Mulana can offer those quizzical, out-of-the-box puzzles that your hack (and the original Metroid, for that matter) used to invoke then I'll definitely have to check it out.

First, don't worry for the special Varia Suit, it is not designed to be found on the first playthrough (before its too late to get it, anyway). Power Grip and Varia Suit are a great help you probably shouldn't leave out at first, unless you either a) despise the Power Grip because it wasn't in the old Metroid games or b) you REALLY insist on getting that special suit.
By the way, Varia Suit only adds 20% damage reduction in this game (I haven't found a way to increase this rate yet, though I always wanted to at least swap it with the 30% reduction of the Gravity Suit since, after all, this IS the "Barrier Suit"). It greatly helps in the heated rooms of Norfair, though.

The powergrip is.. kind of inconsequential to me. Most of the time I can achieve what is needed using bomb jumps or wall jumps. But I did end up getting it to get into the area I needed to access to destroy a missile block (also shown in the trailer.) I think I might have pulled it off with perfectly timed bomb jumps but I didn't have the patience for the first run through.

The Varia suit was more important to me, mostly for the damage reduction (20% is pretty significant when you're at such low health.) The heat barrier is kind of a bonus. I figure I'll probably play through again once I beat it and have a better idea of where to go, without the Power Grip and Varia Suit. (This time, since I got the Power Grip already, I'll just get the Varia Suit when I can.)

The issue about Missiles is one I've specifically put on my list of things to do, as you may have read in an earlier post of mine. You are not the first complaining ;)
In the next version I release, most of the enemies will have alteres droprates.

Usually this hasn't been a major issue. That particular zone was rather unforgiving, though. Usually I don't feel the need to use missiles unless I'm really immediately threatened, and now that I have the Long Beam I can generally take enemies out before they damage me. It's simply that in that area, those enemies had significant amounts of health, dealt significant amounts of damage, and I have a very, very small amount of health. It was a combination of a lot of factors. I wouldn't say you need to return the droprate of anything to Vanilla- but maybe in certain areas the ammo drop rate could be modified.

The other issue you have (being stuck at 99 Energy) can be solved by exploring, though. There is at least one Energy Tank in Brinstar that you can reach, which would make your life much easier.
I won't add much to energy droprates because this is the one resource that naturally should be kept scarce, I think.

That's ok. I think the health drop rate is actually ok. It's simply the amount of damage I'm taking from most enemies I'm encountering in general, that tends to get me. I do think I kinda screwed myself a little by missing that health tank- but hey, who doesn't make a mistake their first run through? I caught wind there was also another in Ridley? I briefly considered going there before deciding against it, as I've been trying not to sequence break.

The last issue is in regards to the Charge Beam.
Yes, I know how incredibly useful the Charge Attack can be in Zero Mission. The reason I put it so late is
[spoiler]
because I've given it the added function of letting you combine beam weapons. Letting you not combine the Wave, Ice and Plasma Beams by default encourages actually thinking about which weapon you want to use - do you want to freeze enemies in your face or do you want to shoot them through walls? It also flows better with the original Metroid.
[/spoiler]
I feel this is just stressing it.

This alone makes it 100% ok that it's reserved until near the end. [spoiler]I love beam switching, loved it in Metroid 1 and 2, Metroid Prime, etc. I didn't realize it did this, I actually thought that it was the special Varia suit that would do this.[/spoiler]

And finally...

You happened to take exactly the one route that is blocked off until a bit later - one for which I actually salute you because it's a really good idea. I think I will put one of Chozodias Energy Tanks there for curious players like you to find. Heh, now it reminds me of that one passage in Metroid Prime where you venture to the crashed frigate without Gravity Suit... Only not as far off the way forward.
(...)
Finally, this post is getting way to long.
I think I am going to move that Energy Tank now.

And because I never mentioned it until now, thnks for all the positive feedback as well :)

Wow! It actually means a lot that my feedback is being taken into such consideration. I love these kinds of games and if I can help in any way to improve an already-quality installment, I would be happy. I know I would've been stoked to find an energy tank there (especially if I had to fight my way there and it was very well hidden.)

Last but not least- That part totally reminded me of that particular section of Metroid Prime as well! In fact, the whole hack has given me that overall feel (I feel like Metroid Prime really, really hit this nail on the head- the best since Super Metroid.) That's why I wanted to stress that it's actually a very good hack. It's not accessible, but it's not impossible. There's no handholding, but there's not a sense of being completely abandoned by the game itself- you know there's places you can explore, new things you can try. In the atmosphere/feels department, this hack scores top points.

Thanks again so much for the work you've put into this and I'm excited to finish playing this and see the improvements in 4.1!

[Luce Seyfarth]

If La Mulana can offer those quizzical, out-of-the-box puzzles that your hack (and the original Metroid, for that matter) used to invoke then I'll definitely have to check it out.

It's actually quite different most of the time. There are puzzles which require finding a secret path or pushing blocks around, but many riddles (especially the later ones) are not only obscure, but the hints for solving them aren't just scattered around the whole game, they are also very cryptic and sometimes outright incomplete, leaving you to figure out the rest yourself. In the original game (not the remake) you even have to get the ability to save before you can do so.
Definitely check it out though, as it's one of the best (and definitely the biggest) Metroidvanias I ever played.

Usually this hasn't been a major issue. That particular zone was rather unforgiving, though. Usually I don't feel the need to use missiles unless I'm really immediately threatened, and now that I have the Long Beam I can generally take enemies out before they damage me. It's simply that in that area, those enemies had significant amounts of health, dealt significant amounts of damage, and I have a very, very small amount of health. It was a combination of a lot of factors. I wouldn't say you need to return the droprate of anything to Vanilla- but maybe in certain areas the ammo drop rate could be modified.

Good to know :)
I am only thinking of one or two very specific spots anyway. And I'm definitely not thinking to raise drop rates back to where they were before.

(...)as I've been trying not to sequence break.

Don't worry, as long as you don't aquire early PBs or something like that you're not really sequence breaking. The order in which you got to Kraid/ Ridley only alters what Powerups you can get earlier and later.

Wow! It actually means a lot that my feedback is being taken into such consideration. I love these kinds of games and if I can help in any way to improve an already-quality installment, I would be happy. I know I would've been stoked to find an energy tank there (especially if I had to fight my way there and it was very well hidden.)

Thanks again so much for the work you've put into this and I'm excited to finish playing this and see the improvements in 4.1!

Actually I'm surprised about such positive feedback. Glad to know Other ZM being enjoyable :)

Well, you had a pretty good idea. There's another part in the game where it will be painful to realize if you've gone there early and I don't plan to change that area (It's only a small, yet difficult detour).

4.1 Will probably take a while, though. I realised there's actually A LOT of assembly hacking (besides other changes) to do for adding the particular element that warrants not naming it version 3.x instead. But once it all works, I think it will be a great addition.

[MollyAncalime]

I just acquired Long Beam and I'm now wondering how to progress in Norfair.
http://i.imgur.com/MgESHfn.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/06FJStk.jpg
I can't seem to find any passages or anything that'd let me explore further on this route.

[Luce Seyfarth]

Going from your first picture, have you tried going further up?

Also,
[spoiler]
have you tried exploring the top left part of Norfair?
[/spoiler]

[FelixWright]

Big long rant. Contains spoilers.
[spoiler]Seems more like a fuck-the-player hack than anything else. Once you get 25 missiles, long beam, morphball, and powergrip, you're pretty much done with the game, because every. single. route. you. can. take. to. advance. is either blocked, requires super missiles (there are waaaaay more super missile requirements than there used to be), or are just random dead ends that say "I wanted to make this hard, so I added useless rooms that are a challenge to get to just so it feels like a maze teehee." Examples:
[spoiler]- no real routes you can take in brinstar.
- I remember reading something about going to Kraid after you obtain supers.
- The super missile tank room in norfair that turns out just to be a super missile tank BLOCK room, followed by a heat room, ending back in a room that you can't do anything in because you can't break two missile blocks to go down.
- What used to be the rooms and such behind the Ice Beam, now long beam, are now inaccessible due to the requirement of super missiles to get behind the chozo statue
- The "sequence-break" path in vanilla MZM that let you go to Ridley inb4 Kraid has the same issue as the dead-end room. Can't hit a certain missile block.
- Kraid's lair is just plain inaccessible until closer to endgame
- You can visit Chozodia early, but provides you nothing except more Super Missile hatches.

[/spoiler]

Personally, the beginning of the game wasn't that hard. Once you get to brinstar, you realize how much of a tedium this hack is going to be. You have to fight the insect hives multiple times to advance, and until you get longbeam, you will never be able to completely wipe them out.

If you see anything lying around, it's a troll that requires tryharding to know where the real item is. I still can't find the item at the crateria-to-brinstar elevator.

I expected a good bit more redesign to pre-motherbrain zebes, often feeling like I was cheating by getting certain missile tanks and such just because I knew where they were in MZM. Other times, knowing MZM zebes like the back of my hand, I'd go to other item locations, only to find them blocked by mainly super missiles.

Now, it is true that MZM was far too easy of a game at times, but now the game is practically impossible. I find this irritating because I know most of MZM's sequence-breaking skills (IBJ, DIBJ, bomb-over-ash)

I mean, I understand you didn't want to hold the player's hand again, but you give absolute-zero hints as to where to go next, or where another route may be found, or where items may be hidden. I have bombspammed every room I don't understand and it doesn't help whatsoever.

TL;DR SUPER MISSILE BLOCKS

SUPER MISSILE BLOCKS EVERYWHERE[/spoiler]

[MollyAncalime]

Going from your first picture, have you tried going further up?

Also,
[spoiler]
have you tried exploring the top left part of Norfair?
[/spoiler]

I find myself unable to go any further up on that morph ball trail, and I've bombed every block in that room only to find super blocks and speed booster blocks, as well as missile blocks that I can't reach. As far as exploring the left side, I did try IBJ'ing over the wall in the room with the elevator to Crateria and going through the heated rooms and fake Super room only to find myself stuck again once I made it into the far right room.

[Luce Seyfarth]

Going from your first picture, have you tried going further up?

Also,
[spoiler]
have you tried exploring the top left part of Norfair?
[/spoiler]

I find myself unable to go any further up on that morph ball trail, and I've bombed every block in that room only to find super blocks and speed booster blocks, as well as missile blocks that I can't reach. As far as exploring the left side, I did try IBJ'ing over the wall in the room with the elevator to Crateria and going through the heated rooms and fake Super room only to find myself stuck again once I made it into the far right room.

On the right side, try Missiles instead of Bombs.
On the left side, just destroy that one missile block you can reach after returning to the right shaft.

Seems more like a fuck-the-player hack than anything else. Once you get 25 missiles, long beam, morphball, and powergrip, you're pretty much done with the game, because every. single. route. you. can. take. to. advance. is either blocked, requires super missiles (there are waaaaay more super missile requirements than there used to be), or are just random dead ends that say "I wanted to make this hard, so I added useless rooms that are a challenge to get to just so it feels like a maze teehee."

Supers are only required for
[spoiler]
getting to Kraid himself
[/spoiler]
as well as some optional expansions. Even then, they could be substituted for some other upgrade(s) as far as just finishing the game is concerned.
There are no useless dead ends. These either lead onward in a way you haven't discovered yet or simply contain items. A blatant dead end was mentioned by Altheaas recently (and now by you) regarding going to Chozodia very early. I already fixed that, but release will have to wait until I'm done with some other stuff.

Examples:
[spoiler]- no real routes you can take in brinstar.
- I remember reading something about going to Kraid after you obtain supers.
- The super missile tank room in norfair that turns out just to be a super missile tank BLOCK room, followed by a heat room, ending back in a room that you can't do anything in because you can't break two missile blocks to go down.
- What used to be the rooms and such behind the Ice Beam, now long beam, are now inaccessible due to the requirement of super missiles to get behind the chozo statue
- The "sequence-break" path in vanilla MZM that let you go to Ridley inb4 Kraid has the same issue as the dead-end room. Can't hit a certain missile block.
- Kraid's lair is just plain inaccessible until closer to endgame
- You can visit Chozodia early, but provides you nothing except more Super Missile hatches.
[/spoiler]

[spoiler]
- the routes in Brinstar open up as you get more powerups. Where's the problem with that?
- you probably misinterpreted what you read about going to Kraid with Supers, because "Kraid" can refer to either Kraid himself or his lair. Did you try going to his lair? It is not inaccessible at all
- said "dead end room" in Norfair isn't actually a dead end. You either find out by trying different things out or by visiting Kraid first and observing a similiar puzzle there. It has to do with this certain missile block
- Again, where is the problem of some rooms being inacessible until you get Supers?
- I already said something about Chozodia
[/spoiler]

(...)You have to fight the insect hives multiple times to advance, and until you get longbeam, you will never be able to completely wipe them out.

What? Why?

If you see anything lying around, it's a troll that requires tryharding to know where the real item is. I still can't find the item at the crateria-to-brinstar elevator.

It's a design choice to hide this stuff well. If you don't like searching, this hack probably isn't for you.

I expected a good bit more redesign to pre-motherbrain zebes, often feeling like I was cheating by getting certain missile tanks and such just because I knew where they were in MZM. Other times, knowing MZM zebes like the back of my hand, I'd go to other item locations, only to find them blocked by mainly super missiles.

Did you read my opening post?

The goal of the hack was not to completely redesign every room and map of the game, but rather to make a different, more difficult, yet somewhat similar experience to the original.

Now, it is true that MZM was far too easy of a game at times, but now the game is practically impossible. I find this irritating because I know most of MZM's sequence-breaking skills (IBJ, DIBJ, bomb-over-ash)

I mean, I understand you didn't want to hold the player's hand again, but you give absolute-zero hints as to where to go next, or where another route may be found, or where items may be hidden. I have bombspammed every room I don't understand and it doesn't help whatsoever.

Also from the opening post:

- This is NOT intended for the easily frustrated, or to be easily accessible.(...) If sometimes searching for more then 5 minutes isn't your thing, then this will likely not be your type of game...

Yet again in the opening post (as well as the readme): There are tips other than "spam bombs everywhere".
I recommend either giving that and the things I wrote in this post a try or else quitting if you don't get any fun out of this hack. As far as wrong assumptions like needing Supers everywhere go, I can help clarify that. However, I will not try to change you personal tastes of what a fun game should be like.
In any case thanks for playing :)



Finally:
I think there is no need in replicating the exact same experience as that which was presented in Zero Mission. It is such a good game by itself (despite being easy most of the time - speedrunning is loads of fun), so I decided to create a different experience.
As for those missiles that are found in the same areas as the original... well, would you prefer not finding ANY more missiles easily?
...The other reason is that I didn't have the time to hide every single item elsewhere yet :P

[FelixWright]

I suppose I was being a dum-dum there, lol. I'd never considered using missiles on things other than missile blocks I find since they are so few and far between.

this changes everything[/captainobvious]

[MollyAncalime]

I found myself once more stuck behind missile blocks I can't reach, now in Ridley. I've exhausted every path save for this one, as far as I can tell.
http://i.imgur.com/a1tdkhfh
By the way, sorry to post using imgur. I play hacks on my iPhone and that's the only site I know of that consistently uploads images from my phone without having to sign up or having a limit.

[A Dummy]

The screenshot doesn't show up that way sadly.
Try using the "Image Link" to the website rather then the "Direct Link" image by itself, that seems to be the only way to get Imgur to work here now.
Here's the Image Link version: http://i.imgur.com/a1tdkhfh (No ".jpg" at the end.)

[WilliamAlan]

Hi, I am in love with your hack. It is one of the hardest ones i have played yet. I am a little lost however, I am not looking for a hand hold but maybe a point in the right direction. I have scoured Brinstar and i never did find the Hi-jump boots. I know in your read me file it says they are there, and i believe it. But the only places for me left to search are behind super missiles so i am venturing into Ridley to go find some. Now if i can get them without would you be willing to give me a hint? Thanks keep up the amazing work. And are you going to do a fusion hack later?

[Luce Seyfarth]

I found myself once more stuck behind missile blocks I can't reach, now in Ridley. I've exhausted every path save for this one, as far as I can tell.
http://i.imgur.com/a1tdkhfh
By the way, sorry to post using imgur. I play hacks on my iPhone and that's the only site I know of that consistently uploads images from my phone without having to sign up or having a limit.

I had the same problem with those Screenshots at first. As it turns out, Firefox can't display them for me, even after clicking on the link. However, using Internet Explorer works fine. I don't know if other Browsers will work, too.

Back to you question: try finding an alternate entrance to this room.

Hi, I am in love with your hack. It is one of the hardest ones i have played yet. I am a little lost however, I am not looking for a hand hold but maybe a point in the right direction. I have scoured Brinstar and i never did find the Hi-jump boots. I know in your read me file it says they are there, and i believe it. But the only places for me left to search are behind super missiles so i am venturing into Ridley to go find some. Now if i can get them without would you be willing to give me a hint? Thanks keep up the amazing work. And are you going to do a fusion hack later?

Thanks :)
High Jump Boots are indeed in Brinstar and you can get them either with Super Missiles or Speed Booster. You have to find a way to build up a Shinespark if using Speed Booster.



A Fusion Hack is an interesting idea. It depends on if I have the motivation to fully understand and rewrite its event++-System. Judging from my Zero Mission hacking experience I should be able to manipulate the scripts for getting major upgrades dependant on location rather then on the event value relatively easily. Also, it would be really fun rewriting Adam's dialouge and for example give him some funny WTF moments if you manage to do a difficult sequence break.
The design aspect would be another story, however. That would take a long, long time. I don't know if I would ever do that. Maybe if I get an interesting enough base idea other than "make it nonlinear". I wouldn't just want to put in some passages allowing for sequence breaks.

TL:DR
Don't expect me to do a Metroid Fusion hack.

[WilliamAlan]

Hi thanks i think i know which room you are talking about and that one is pain in the butt to shinespark to. And i am toying with a few stories for the a Fusion hack. If i finish one i will send it to you and see if that is something you may use. But just a base idea is to use maps from both GBA games to create a new one. Just an idea and using the sprites from fusion. It may not be worth it but it is a novel idea. Make the story take place after the base has crashed on the planet, at the end of fusion. And you are there to rescue someone/thing for the Fed. Like i said novel. And now i am stuck in Chozodia. I made it through the Pirate ship. And now i am stuck with no way through or back. I have morph, bombs, missiles, super missiles, power grip, wave beam, long beam, and speed booster. Did i screw the pooch or is there a way out? NVM. I found the exit OMFG! That was a trip. LOL. Still in love with the game. Though you got me to cuss in two languages.

[MollyAncalime]

I am aware of this entrance to that room.
http://m.imgur.com/QOAsFEh
I haven't a clue how to progress on this end either. I'm really trying to avoid using Double Helix to do anything, so this is my only lifeline, so to speak :razz:

[Luce Seyfarth]

(...)And i am toying with a few stories for the a Fusion hack. If i finish one i will send it to you and see if that is something you may use. But just a base idea is to use maps from both GBA games to create a new one. Just an idea and using the sprites from fusion. It may not be worth it but it is a novel idea. Make the story take place after the base has crashed on the planet, at the end of fusion. And you are there to rescue someone/thing for the Fed. Like i said novel.

Uh... Adding whole areas is not easy, though. Biospark says that his editor will be able to add rooms and areas, but until then it would just be a hassle. Still, this kind of hack would require SO MUCH work, I don't think it would be worth it...

Sorry, but I meant interesting ideas for the gameplay, not for the story. I'm a pretty good writer, actually (though english would be a new experience), but story alone just won't cut it.

(...) Though you got me to cuss in two languages.

Wow... What was the non-english one?

I am aware of this entrance to that room.
http://m.imgur.com/QOAsFEh
I haven't a clue how to progress on this end either. I'm really trying to avoid using Double Helix to do anything, so this is my only lifeline, so to speak :razz:

No, I meant
[spoiler]
an entrance from the top left, on the other side from the top door.
[/spoiler]

[WilliamAlan]

Well you would not be making a whole new map. You would use fusions map layout using sprite layers from Zero and Fusion to alter the look of the map but not the actual map. Making it look like you are on the planet and the station. Engrish and German. And I made it through most of the game. But i am having trouble figuring out how to get the gravity UK-item early. And the gauntlet for the item in Brinstar, was fun. LOL.