Does the FDS version of Metroid work with Editroid?

[Meeptroid]

Exactly what the title says

[PonchGaming]

That is a good question. You should try.

[Meeptroid]

Ugh, it doesn't. Snarfblam, if you see this message, that would be a great feature to add to Editroid!!

[personitis]

Excuse me if I'm wrong, but I think the difference between the NES version and the FDS is the save files? The being the case, you should check this out.
Better yet, why is the beta site still in beta?

[Quietus]

I'm curious as to why we'd need it when it's been fine without it for so many years. :neutral:

[Meeptroid]

Honestly, personitis, I have seen that hack, and I have used that hack, what I wanted the FDS version was for the extra little sound here and there.
And Quietus, it would be nice in Editroid, just because of the few added sounds and everything. I get slightly annoyed at how they didn't use a battery backed-up cartridge for a game so big, passwords really don't do it enough justice, so snarfblam did a great thing there, considering he added saves, added something the original Metroid didn't have, a map, and the wavy-ice beam, he did a great thing there! I just really like the extra sounds, cause I'm weird like that.

[PKstarship]

I think the FDS version has slightly more advanced enemy AI as well as better sounds.

[Meeptroid]

I think the FDS version has slightly more advanced enemy AI as well as better sounds.

I know for a fact that it has better sound, especially in the ending theme, have you heard it? Also, I don't know if it does have better AI, but its definitely possible, as this IS the Famicom Disk System we are talking about, it used floppy disks, so its definitely possible, I just don't know if it does..

[personitis]

what I wanted the FDS version was for the extra little sound here and there.

And this right here is the beauty of ROM hacking. Want something? Gather the knowledge to put it in! NEStroid already has music editing and from my experience in Super Metroid, adding in (already existing) sound effects to new places is not difficult once you know where to look and what to do. I'd assume the process would be even easier if not just as easy for our NES counterpart.

As for the move advanced AI, I'm gonna call bull on that until further evidence is provided.

[Mtgxyz]

https://tcrf.net/Metroid#Other_Differences
Evidence enough?

[Meeptroid]

Holy shit man, thats astounding! I'm gonna say it right now, I honestly wasn't expecting that to be true facts, but thanks so much for letting me know Mtgxyz

And personitis, I honestly don't understand a lot of rom-hacking as of now, at least to that extant yet, but I would like to know exactly what aspect of rom-hacking that allows you to do that

[snarfblam]

Due to the extra memory provided by the FDS RAM adapter, the FDS version features enemies that behave in a more random fashion. The NES version generally restricts enemies to a single one of these behaviors when you enter an area, and retains that behavior until the enemy data leaves memory.

That reasoning for the difference in enemy behavior is widely believed and often cited, but ultimately it is untrue. There is actually plenty of unused RAM, which is pretty evident if you spend a little time in the hex editor of FCEUX. I can't offer a definitive explanation for the different enemy behavior, but it's probably either an unintentional bug, or a bug they intentionally ignored for the sake of meeting deadlines. Even just having side-hoppers alternate between big and small jumps would require one additional bit of data per enemy. The fact that they are randomly all either very easy or all very difficult doesn't make sense as an intentional solution to an issue that doesn't even exist.

I know for a fact that it has better sound

I know for a fact that some of the sounds are different. Better is subjective. It's probably a simple matter of nostalgia, but I like the NES sounds better.

Snarfblam, if you see this message, that would be a great feature to add to Editroid!!

I would love for that feature to be there, but you have no idea how much effort it took to add ROM expansion to the NES version. That's not even including the effort that others put into reverse-engineering the ROM, which saved me a lot of time. The FDS version is not nearly as well documented, I don't know anything about the .FDS format or whether or not it's possible to expand the data significantly, and there are other issues, such as the lack of CHR-ROM support on FDS, which means CHR cycling (or the new CHR animation system in the upcoming version of Editroid) would not be supported.

If you really, really want to use Editroid on an FDS ROM, this is what you do. Make all your modification to screen, structure, and combo data with Editroid on an NES ROM. Locate the original data in the FDS ROM and insert and re-point the modified data from the NES ROM. Realistically, that's the best help I can offer in this department. @shrug

[personitis]

https://tcrf.net/Metroid#Other_Differences
Evidence enough?

Why yes that is. Randomness such as varying amounts of attacks (Dragons shooting 1-3 balls, Squeept jump height) sound like things that could be easily worked in despite hardware limitations unless NES the version doesn't have a random number generator built into it. Lag and loading times however, I'd guess are pretty minute and are actually due to the hardware, so not much to save there I suppose.
(snarf with the post snipe here)

In the case of editing and adding mechanics or features into a game, you'd be looking for assembly (or ASM for short). Don't overwhelm yourself though. I say take it easy and learn on a steady curve when you're starting out.

[Meeptroid]

OK, thanks personitis, I have heard of ASM, as A LOT of hacks use it to my knowledge, and I might learn it at some point, no rush. And about the enemy mechanics, that would be interesting to add to NEStroid, although, I might stick to FDStroid for when I wanna play the original metroid

[Meeptroid]

Due to the extra memory provided by the FDS RAM adapter, the FDS version features enemies that behave in a more random fashion. The NES version generally restricts enemies to a single one of these behaviors when you enter an area, and retains that behavior until the enemy data leaves memory.

That reasoning for the difference in enemy behavior is widely believed and often cited, but ultimately it is untrue. There is actually plenty of unused RAM, which is pretty evident if you spend a little time in the hex editor of FCEUX. I can't offer a definitive explanation for the different enemy behavior, but it's probably either an unintentional bug, or a bug they intentionally ignored for the sake of meeting deadlines. Even just having side-hoppers alternate between big and small jumps would require one additional bit of data per enemy. The fact that they are randomly all either very easy or all very difficult doesn't make sense as an intentional solution to an issue that doesn't even exist.

I know for a fact that it has better sound

I know for a fact that some of the sounds are different. Better is subjective. It's probably a simple matter of nostalgia, but I like the NES sounds better.

Snarfblam, if you see this message, that would be a great feature to add to Editroid!!

I would love for that feature to be there, but you have no idea how much effort it took to add ROM expansion to the NES version. That's not even including the effort that others put into reverse-engineering the ROM, which saved me a lot of time. The FDS version is not nearly as well documented, I don't know anything about the .FDS format or whether or not it's possible to expand the data significantly, and there are other issues, such as the lack of CHR-ROM support on FDS, which means CHR cycling (or the new CHR animation system in the upcoming version of Editroid) would not be supported.

If you really, really want to use Editroid on an FDS ROM, this is what you do. Make all your modification to screen, structure, and combo data with Editroid on an NES ROM. Locate the original data in the FDS ROM and insert and re-point the modified data from the NES ROM. Realistically, that's the best help I can offer in this department. @shrug

Well, Snarfblam, if you ever learn anything about FDS roms and eventually learn enough to add those features, please do! I'm not saying go out of your way to learn, I'm just saying IF you learn. Also, have you done everything you are going to do with Editroid? I will admit, I haven't seen an update for a really long time.....

[Grimlock]

Also, have you done everything you are going to do with Editroid? I will admit, I haven't seen an update for a really long time.....

There's a pretty significant update currently in development.  I can't speak for Snarfblam but it has been discussed that it will most likely be released about the time Rogue Dawn is released.  Don't let that prevent you from continuing your work in the publicly available version 3.7 of the Editor.  Your current ROM should be compatible with the new version assuming you don't change anything too dramatically like adding IPS patches that contain new ASM.  Editroid 3.7 (The version you should be using, most current) is one of the best NES game editors available even without the features of the upcoming version.  The new version of the editor adds additional memory (MMC3 mapper) and some additional advanced editing features such as tile physics editing, ability to create complex animations, multiple tile sets per area (Cycle CHR graphics) and more.  If you intend to create a project as vast as Rogue Dawn the new editor will be exactly what you're after.  For projects with a similar scale to the original M1 the features in 3.7 should be more than adequate.

[Meeptroid]

OK! I get it, and that will be nice, I am happy to know that Editroid development is not complete. Snarfblam, you are excellent for creating the utility known as Editroid!

[zaphod77]

I'm very interested in seeing a NES rom with fixed enemy AI.  I'm aware of the following.

1) normal NES rom. bad AI, missing sunds, password save, better escape music.
2) FDS rom. has saving, has proper AI, has extra sounds, better title theme, better ending theme, worse escape music.
3) chinese pirate cart metroid. has intro text missing, no passwords or save system, no fds audio (but game not changed to accommodate it like NES version) but DOES have correct AI. No title tune at all (!). Oh, and the turrets are missing in Tourian (!), and it hangs at the end screen, saying press start, but start does nothing.

I know of no romhacks that restore the FDS versions AI at all.  Ideally i want full AI, saving, and either nes music/sounds or full fds audio.

PS: on my metroid.fds image, the 1k map data is 62E5 to 66e4, and it's the start of MAIN.PGM file on side 1.  the CHR data is on side 2 in the files that start with HM. HMOB for sprites, and HMBG for graphics/text.  You should be able to work out which is which. The STG?PGM files should contain the tile definitions, object definitions, structure definitions, and enemy data for each area.  i believe 1 to be brinstar, 4 to be norfair, 5 to be tourian, 6 to be kraid, and 7 to be ridley, based on what I see in the tile data.

It should be possible to make the editor for non expanded roms work for FDS if we add a FDS parser, and a table of what file has what data.

fds games only have 32k prg ram, and 8k chr ram. but they can load in sections to replace it with calls to FDS BIOS.  those make cycling completely impossible.  you simply cannot expand the FDS version by any obvious means. but any edit that works in an unexpanded ROM should be doable in FDS version.

[Meeptroid]

I'm very interested in seeing a NES rom with fixed enemy AI.  I'm aware of the following.

1) normal NES rom. bad AI, missing sunds, password save, better escape music.
2) FDS rom. has saving, has proper AI, has extra sounds, better title theme, better ending theme, worse escape music.
3) chinese pirate cart metroid. has intro text missing, no passwords or save system, no fds audio (but game not changed to accommodate it like NES version) but DOES have correct AI. No title tune at all (!). Oh, and the turrets are missing in Tourian (!), and it hangs at the end screen, saying press start, but start does nothing.

I know of no romhacks that restore the FDS versions AI at all.  Ideally i want full AI, saving, and either nes music/sounds or full fds audio.

PS: on my metroid.fds image, the 1k map data is 62E5 to 66e4, and it's the start of MAIN.PGM file on side 1.  the CHR data is on side 2 in the files that start with HM. HMOB for sprites, and HMBG for graphics/text.  You should be able to work out which is which. The STG?PGM files should contain the tile definitions, object definitions, structure definitions, and enemy data for each area.  i believe 1 to be brinstar, 4 to be norfair, 5 to be tourian, 6 to be kraid, and 7 to be ridley, based on what I see in the tile data.

It should be possible to make the editor for non expanded roms work for FDS if we add a FDS parser, and a table of what file has what data.

fds games only have 32k prg ram, and 8k chr ram. but they can load in sections to replace it with calls to FDS BIOS.  those make cycling completely impossible.  you simply cannot expand the FDS version by any obvious means. but any edit that works in an unexpanded ROM should be doable in FDS version.

Might I ask what the name of this Chinese Metroid Pirate is? I've always been interested in pirates like this, and this interests me..

[zaphod77]

Metroid - Jin Ji Zhi Ling

Incidentally, this DOES still have the FDS audio data, so the sound effects, entry jingle, and item jingle WILL play on the analogue nt mini.