Metroid Physics

[personitis]

Read the question and vote. I'm not gonna vote just yet cause I liked Fusion's physics, but Grime says ZM is like Fusion but less restrictive...

[squishy_ichigo]

I'm gonna go with Zero Mission here. I love Super Metroid, and have gotten quite used to the physics, but they are too damn floaty.

The lack of single walljump in Fusion is the deal breaker there.

M1 can't crouch, M2... never really played it.

And how can you really compare 2d and 3d physics?

[FullOfFail]

I'm retarded, I meant to hit super metroid, but hit metroid II instead >.>

[Jathys]

I'm retarded, I meant to hit super metroid, but hit metroid II instead >.>

That's okay though. The physics in Metroid II sucked and I doubt anyone would intentionally vote for that one. It's good that it gets at least one vote.

[RealRed]

Person, this has nothing to do with general hacking. Moved to the off-topic board.

Anyway, where is Metroid Prime Pinball on there? That game was beast!

[DSO]

Super Metroid. The game engine is more enjoyable to play in than the other 2Ds IMO.

[zephyrtronium]

I'm gonna go with MZM because bomb jumping is by far the most versatile and, in my opinion, easiest in it.

[GF_Kennon]

I'm gonna go with MZM because bomb jumping is by far the most versatile and, in my opinion, easiest in it.

you just fucking mash the b button  :eyeroll:

[Lunaria]

Super metroid.

Zero missions physics are also great but it's just so much easier and more fun to play in the physics in super metroid.

[snarfblam]

The lack of single walljump in Fusion is the deal breaker there.

M1 can't crouch

Physics and controls are closely related, but ultimately two different things. The lack of crouching in NEStroid is inconvenient, but that's got nothing to do with physics. The game's physics overall are great if you can get past the silly glitches like rolling off a ledge and jumping from the air. So should the question be which game has the best physics or which game has the best controls/physics.

I love Super Metroid, and have gotten quite used to the physics, but they are too damn floaty.

I think "floaty" hits the nail on the head, not that it really took away from the game.

I'm voting ZM because SMET is too floaty and NEStroid has a handful of nonsensical (but useful) glitches in the physics. That's based strictly on physics, but if controls are part of the equation, SMET would win.

[Scyzer]

Maybe there should be an option for "SMR-like physics"? I prefer the controls and movements of Super Metroid by far, but I agree they are too floaty. Which is why I sped things up =)

[Hiroshi Mishima]

*urge.. to comment on comments... rising... must.. resist...*

Insofar as I'm concerned, Super Metroid, hands down. I feel the "floaty" nature of Metroid by far defines a major part of the gameplay that I truly enjoyed, and it was also sadly missing in Metroid Zero Mission, which is probably one of my least enjoyable games insofar as physics was concerned.

And as was already stated, do not confuse physics with gameplay. MZM may have had decent gameplay, but I felt the physics sucked. It was too fast, the bombs really were basically "mash a" because that's by and far what I did for the most part. Being able to "float" gave me time to think, to plan my next course of action. Like they say when you pull the pin on a hand grenade, "you can do a lot in 4 seconds". From my experience, MZM moved so fast I felt rushed and pressured to go faster and faster, not stopping to look at the environments which for me are also a core element to the enjoyment and appeal of Metroid games.

I enjoyed the physics of Metroid Fusion, and while the "push off walls" aspect did detract from both the appeal of the physics and the gameplay itself, it wasn't actually that bad and I got used to it fairly quickly. They were closer to Super Metroid than MZM's physics were at any rate, and not nearly as fast.

In regards to Metroid 1 and 2, they were what they were, good games in their own right. Sure they didn't have the best physics, but they made do with what little limited physics they had and were enjoyable in their medium.

And please for the love of gods don't get me started on Redesign... please...

[personitis]

And please for the love of gods don't get me started on Redesign... please...

A list of reasons I didn't give this option:
#1: It's a troll amongst some people. Either that or it immediately starts some kind of [flame] war.
#2: It's Metroid game, not Metroid hack.
#3: ... ... . . .

Ok, I had three reasons but forgot the third. :>_>:

[Hiroshi Mishima]

Trust me, I'm not going to jump on you for that, man.. I personally do not like Redesign. I'll go no further than that.

[devonodev]

My vote goes to SM.  I liked the floaty-ness, it was more fun to play around.
I liked ZM's physics as well, but not quite as good as SM.

[aigamerDS]

I voted for MZM because it's not too floaty and fall just about the right speed.

[Hiroshi Mishima]

I realize this is about 3 weeks old, but the topic of Metroid Physics is something that always manages to "rile me up" as they say. I often see people complain or whine about how Super Metroid has "floaty" physics. The main reason this annoys me to no end is because the people who say it often have no idea that it's those particular physics that are part of what makes the Metroid series  what it is. It isn't just the exploration, it's the god-damned physics, too. You take that away, and you get crap games like Metroid Zero Mission or Redesign which are Metroid-like in appearance, but not in gameplay.

The floaty-ness has always been there from Metroid 1, through Metroid 3 (Super Metroid). It's an integral part of the Metroid gameplay and feel. It's one of the reasons I don't really care for Metroid Prime, but that's not the point. Unless people are just thick, Zebes and other places are alien worlds and aren't always going to have exactly perfect replications of our atmosphere and in particular our gravity, which is something people don't seem to realize. Not all worlds or planets are gonna have 1x Earth's normal gravity. I mean gods, didn't Dragon Ball Z.. or hell, the damn Moon teach people anything? You jump on the Moon, and what's gonna happen? You're going to friggin' float!

Also, take a look at Samus... in her SUIT, damn it. Look at the back of her suit, and what do you see? That's right, a pair of freakin' boosters, or thrusters or jets or whatever the hell you wanna call them. I'm sure those aren't simply for show. Hell, they're one of the few constants that are always there from suit to suit. In fact, pfft, she got a power-up specifically aimed at improving them in Prime 2.

But let's get off the topic of the Prime games again, because that isn't what this is about. I understand the reasoning behind the physics in the Prime games, and it has no bearing on the physics in the 2-D ones as they're two different types of genres and gameplay styles. Metroid 4 (Metroid Fusion), has similar but slightly faster physics than the first three games. There's a very logical explanation for this, and that's the fact that it's on a handheld with a smaller screen and resolution. Hell, if you wanna go further you could explain it away as her being on a space station that could house Humans without them needing suits, but that quickly becomes sticky when you factor in the different environments based on SR388, unless you wanna say that SR388 has a more earthlike gravity. In fact you know what, I'd be willing to give that to you IF you stop for a second and look over at Metroid Retcon Mission (MZM). The physics on this are SO fast that unless you have very good eyes you can't even make out many of the individual movement sprites on Samus without using the GB Player or an emulator. And let's face it, even then it's going by so fast you don't have time to look at Samus cause you gotta watch where you're running. I mean, she has after images for gods' sakes... Honestly, it feels like I've got speed on 200% or something when I play MZM... it gives me a headache.

In case anyone's getting the wrong idea here, I'm not saying that MZM or Fusion are bad games cause they have different physics. I love Fusion and I'd probably like MZM if it hadn't included certain other factors with aren't part of this discussion. What I am saying is that by dismissing Super Metroid's physics as "floaty = bad" you're dismissing part of what made Metroid so unique to begin with. If you personally can't stand the floaty aspect of Super Metroid, that's fine, no one is making you play Super Metroid. But don't sit there and put down a great game because it isn't fast enough for you, and don't think you need to change the physics in order to make a good romhack, either.

I really want to say something else, but I'm not going to open that can of worms because it's a very tired subject for me.

[Zhs2]

The sad part is that Nintendo listened to the people who complained about the floaty. ;(

[personitis]

The sad part is that Nintendo listened to the people who complained about the floaty. ;(

Nintendo listens to their fans?

And Hiroshi (oh shi- I just realized you weren't Hayashi o.o; ), I think what you're trying to say (with a rather decent written explanation) is that the floaty-ness kept the series feeling original? I do agree with you there and I will admit, I do prefer faster game engines over slower ones (but holy crap, was that necessary Redesign?). But that's not to say I don't look for game play value. What I will argue is why the physics probably did change. One reason I could think of is games becoming more intense and faster pace these days, but since when does Nintendo care for the more competitive party anyways? While I do see that some people complain that Super is a bit easy and NEStroid was hard, both could learn something from the other.

[spoiler=Wall-O-Text]On the NES side, it was so well received because of the exploration value, you had to go far out to get an item and learn to explore. The enemies didn't posses a big fear because you had so little energy when you embarked on your adventure that it made them feel powerful giving an Eris like feel as we hackers may know it as today. Super however, produced rich gameplay, a very flexible movement engine (whether by mistake or not), and exploration on a cut down scale. The movement system, I believe (and please feel free to correct me if you think I'm wrong) this is what started this whole faster paced engine. Nintendo, as we all know very well now days, hates it when the players find a very broken technique that makes doing things in games easier or sequence breakable. Hint hint, nudge nudge, Super Metroid's wall jumping. My god how we abuse that these days. This is the big ticker because it makes the game easier if the player sits down to learn this technique because you can do so much with it.

Look at Fusion and you realize that the falling speed is faster (I'll explain my view a second) and that wall jumping is VERY restrictive. Players of any game can agree, when they have some kind of freedom, whether it be traveling or movement, a game will tend to be much more enjoyable because of replay value. Wall jumping limits this in Fusion and so does it's linear gameplay thus making it restrictive and difficult. Of course, making enemies easier doesn't help to add to the situation. This how is Nintendo thought they would make the game more enjoyable to the more newbie friendly audience and of course when that happens, the higher level gamers get ticked.

Now why the faster falling speed? Well, if wall jumping is obviously broken, Nintendo would fix it to make difficulty balance out some more (ya know, the general enemy challenge, game speed for difficult puzzles and reflexes). Ha... haha. No people started complaining that the game was too hard because the physics* are too tight. A faster paced game with restrictive movement isn't sounding so good, as you need some quick ways to maneuver around obstacles so you have time to think... well at least for the newer people, which is what the target audience tends to be with, you guessed it, Nintendo. How do we work around this? "Let's make gravity stronger and loosen other things a little." It almost seems like a trade out... almost.

I say almost 'cause here's what it comes down too: you have those that dislike change, and those that like it. For the first group, Super Metroid falls there. The later takes up Zero Mission (according to the topic here). Super Metroid is what set the standards for a good Metroid game, it's grand exploration (NEStroid takes this along side), it's navigation through map, and the physics. All of it was near perfection (use loosely please) because it was so open. It makes you feel like you can explore how you want which is what makes it fun; you can play the game how you want. No, you don't need to follows the steps of hundreds of thousands of others, nor do you need to do objective A first. You do what you want. It leaves a game with plenty of replay value and it always seems rich and waiting for when you get home after that long day of work. It let's you find what's easy for you (that's not to say there aren't any road bumps ;D).

In my opinion, what Nintendo needs to start doing is allowing for slightly more open world exploration and keep the advanced stuff for those who like to do things the quick way. :wink: You defiantly aren't going to please everyone in one go, nor will you do it in your second, ni can ever please everyone. But you could at least work on it one step at a time and look at past mistakes and evaluate off the the past.[/spoiler]

TL;DR Just read the spoiler lazy ass.

[Zhs2]

Nintendo listens to their fans?

Considering that Zero Mission has intentional sequence breaking, I'm going to have to say yes.

[Lunaria]

In retrospect, I would have voted for prime 2 (like prime 1 but better) for best physics. But that one was not up in the poll so, oh well.

[personitis]

Considering that Zero Mission has intentional sequence breaking, I'm going to have to say yes.

If it's intentional what makes it sequence breaking? It's a split path unless you need to play through the game once to learn a few things first... which I still wouldn't consider a SB.

[Hiroshi Mishima]

Damn it, why do I have to forget to recheck forums for months on end? Okay, I'll try to make this short because I know my posts are often long and boring, and I do tend to ramble a fair bit. Well, nuts to that idea. >_>


[spoiler= Oh gods, what've I done.]Let's go back just a little bit to Sonic the Hedgehog, and stay with me this is going somewhere I promise. Sonic games were about one thing above all else: fast and frantic gameplay; speeding through the areas at 'blinding' speeds giving you little time to react. Comebine this with good visuals and a screen that didn't allow far enough vision of what was about to come at you, and it could easily become a game made of epic frustration and anger. However, it was well received and we know where it went. Personally I rather enjoyed the Sonic Adventure games because you could actually SEE where you were going and usually had enough time to react, but a lot of people felt the game was too easy. Gee, maybe because we could actually BEAT it? Fast forwards and we hit the, you guessed it, GameBoy Advance era where the controversial Zero Mission takes place.

The Sonic games on the GBA are often considered harder than the original, faster than the original, and above all worse than the original. Unfortunately, it went on to have 2 more games and the DS games continued the trend. Here's the problem, in the GBA games you had even less visual range which means you could go full speed into a pit, wall, spikes, anything with next to no time to react. Maybe that was cool for people with fast reflexes or Asians or whoever.. but not for me, and I'm sure that a lot of people felt the same. Oh, and just to throw it out, Sonic also had floaty-ish physics when you jumped or launched.

Now how does this relate to Metroid and Zero Mission? In Fusion, despite the fact that it lost the open feel and nerfed wall jumps, I still enjoyed it because it at least felt more like Super Metroid. But more than that, it didn't go so fast that I had no time to react. One of the things that really kills MZM for me is that it goes so fast that I can't always keep up, and that certainly dredged up memories of the very frustrating Sonic Advance games for some of the same reasons; fast paced, small screen, and lots to look at and distract you.

What I'm saying is that it feels like Metroid Zero Mission was meant to appeal to the kiddies and other gamers (who may not be kiddies) that liked fast and frantic gameplay. It's no lie that games were getting a bit faster here and there in some aspects and games often incorporated a Run button. Heck, sometimes they had automatic running, which I believe the portable Metroid games had. For me, automatic running is both good and bad. I prefer it in games where I'm going to have to do a lot of backtracking or there are just an abundance of large areas and normal speed drives me nuts. In a game like Metroid, it's nice to be able to STOP and look around, especially when you have to explore. I seriously doubt explorers race through their quarries at breakneck speeds. For me, it was a tremendous detraction and distraction from the enjoyment of the game, jumping physics and Zero Suit aside.


On the subject of sequence breaking, I would be willing to consider that intentionally designed SB situations could be acceptable if they weren't so obviously intentional. However, I don't see the stuff in MZM as being true sequence breaking. It felt more like Nintendo saying, "Since you won't play it how we made it, then fine, have your stupid little shortcuts." I appreciated them, but it felt more like frustrating to take advantage of them, especially in the case of the Varia Suit. It didn't help that they actually DO force your hands in requiring you to pick up the Unknown Items in order to progress for no reason than they activate doors or blocks, which felt like Nintendo messing with players who liked going for low item scores.

Let's not forget that the one time you can seriously break sequence in Fusion, it forced you to go back anyways. That was a definite slap on the hands by Nintendo. It doesn't feel like they were listening, but having paid attention and making sure we don't do it again unless they approve of it. Again, I see a lot of this as being directly related to Gunpei no longer having a hand in their development, but that may just be me and my dislike for what Nintendo's become in general. I personally consider Super Metroid to be a damn near perfect masterpiece of game design. Any flaws the game may have are vastly outweighed by other elements, and I can only say "God damn it, Phantoon is a twonk" so many times before I'm just repeating the same dislike over and over again. Thank gods for romhacks where we can change that. :p

I do, however, agree that Nintendo needs to start acknowledging that there are more than two types of gamers (the oft-mentioned 'casual' gamer which doesn't really exist, and the more 'hardcore' gamer which they think is everyone else), but are in fact several variations of each of those two types. You have the truly hardcore gamers which ARE the ones who often find the bizarre tricks like getting stuff early in Metroid Prime, and those are possibly the same ones who beat Resident Evil with the knife under 2 hours and sent it to Capcom. Then you have the middle section which are gamers who like to enjoy the game, get the most out of it, but don't go for the inane challenges the developers put into games and it often infuriates them and they're usually the ones who get flamed by trolls on GameFAQs for saying something is hard and unfun. Then you have the people who love games but never play them on harder settings because it just isn't fun for them, or they lack the skill/expertise/Asianness to handle them. Like my well known stance on Megaman 9 and my inquiring why there is a purchasable HARDER mode but not an EASIER mode.[/spoiler]

...I think I've wandered away from the topic somewhat, so I'm going to shut up and give my brain a bit of time to digest what I'm just written.

EDIT: I'm really sorry, I don't quite know why I went off onto a lengthy rant and I apologize, for I am totally unable to summarize this adequately...

I guess.. TL;DR: Changing physics/gameplay works best when you do it well, it feels natural, and it doesn't conflict with what made the series good to begin with or aspects related to platform limitations.

[Sir_Furious]

I'm with SM on this one. Fusion was fun in it's fast paced physics, and ZM was also good in that we got the single wall jump back... But the entire sequence breaking thing gets on my nerves a little... I've always preferred to play a game straightforward, and SM's physics let me do that, keeping the time to think while you're mid-air.

[personitis]

See, I don't mind the speed of the physics engine but I love having flexibility in other areas of the game... which is why I've yet to cast my own vote... ;_;