SM Redesign: Axeil Edition FINAL

[CaRmAgE]

If you're going to keep the numbers that low, you'll probably have to take the EPBC way into LN; the normal entrance is blocked by a bunch of PB blockades and Super gates.  Also, I remember it being impossible to weaken Zebetites at all with Supers, because they fire too slowly.  15 missiles might be enough, though (not sure).

I think Wave Beam is only needed to reach an expansion in Norfair (I could be remembering wrong, though).  Finally, what's stopping you from skipping Wall Jump Boots and Space Jump?

P.S: I don't know how to hide things behind spoilers, if this post is too long or reveals anything other players might not want to know. Apologies for that.

[ spoiler]Remove the spaces to make this a spoiler (or click the nuke button).[ /spoiler]

You forget that there are doors that demand 25 missiles instead of just five (Five Super Missiles also do the trick).

No, he didn't.  He mentioned the purple doors multiple times.

[Foxhound3857]

EPBC is another world of madness. I want to see if it's even feasible to do this normally first. Elminster has already completed an EPBC (props to him for that), maybe he can look into EPBC low% if he still has his sanity.

What if you hit a Zebetite with all 15 Missiles and then immediately follow up with a Super? I think what I'll end up doing for this is sticking to 15/2 until (and if) I reach Tourian, and then I could probably test it out and see if 15/3 will work or if I need to change it to 30/2. But I know you can fire a Super immediately after a Missile with no delay, so that would probably be enough.

Don't you need Wall Jump Boots to get around most places if you're not doing EPBC? How would I even reach the Bombs? I'd have to do EPBC part way until I make it back to my ship or something?

I could see Space Jump being unnecessary but I'll have to test it and see.

I was also planning to remove Hi-Jump, thinking it might be circumvented with IBJ, but then I remembered underwater suitless requires it too. So Hi-Jump stays in.

Edit: Oh, you mean take the back door into LN, not do an actual EPBC run, by shinesparking through the Grappling Beam room. But that means early Ridley/Golden Torizo and not having enough resources to manage health via Crystal Flash, and according to Elm, enemies in LN don't drop health if you take the back door in.

Also, most PB blocks and gates stay open/cleared once cracked the first time. Is that different for the main entrance to LN?

[CaRmAgE]

Don't you need Wall Jump Boots to get around most places if you're not doing EPBC? How would I even reach the Bombs? I'd have to do EPBC part way until I make it back to my ship or something?

Yeah, it's like starting EPBC, but you go for Bombs instead of the trip wire that reveals the Power Bomb.  Then, you just IBJ anywhere you would need WJBs or SJ.

And, yeah, I'm pretty positive you need High Jump to get Gravity Suit, even if you take the Grapple shortcut.

enemies in LN don't drop health if you take the back door in.

I played around with that entrance a bunch, and it seems that LN pickups have nothing to do with the entrance.  Getting Gravity Suit makes enemies in LN start dropping pickups.

Also, most PB blocks and gates stay open/cleared once cracked the first time. Is that different for the main entrance to LN?

It might be the same, but I wasn't sure if you could backtrack (not to mention good luck IBJing at the exit with everything shooting at you).

[Zero Dozer]

@CaRmAgE : There's a passage on Crateria Depths leading to some upgrades that need the Wave Beam to get to. Also, Space Jump is needed to access Draygon's room, no?

Also... So this is why pickups weren't showing for me in Lower Norfair. Nice to know.

@Foxhound3857 : You forget I also completed an EPBC run, even before I finished the game normally.

[Foxhound3857]

@CaRmAgE : There's a passage on Crateria Depths leading to some upgrades that need the Wave Beam to get to. Also, Space Jump is needed to access Draygon's room, no?

Also... So this is why pickups weren't shouwing for me in Lower Norfair. Nice to know.

@Foxhound3857 : You forget I also completed an EPBC run, even before I finished the game normally.

Grats on that. So you know better than anyone except maybe Elm the pain of not having Bombs or WJB. I'm watching Elm's playthrough of EPBC right now. That Lower Norfair is something else.

Carmage: I'll try doing it with WJB on my first playthrough and see if it can be eliminated on future attempts. I'm not good at IBJ in Redesign, the timing is ridiculously precise when you have to account for fall speed and refresh timers. There's almost no room for error, and in some of the rooms requiring you to scale multiple stories to escape...yeah.

I'll give Space Jump a skip and see what I can do. And if I absolutely have to, I'll snag Wave Beam, but I don't recall needing it to reach Gravity Suit.

Edit: Totally noob question, but where is the gate puzzle near Spore Spawn? The one with a Power Bomb pack?

[CaRmAgE]

Yeah, I don't blame you.  Taking WJBs out makes the game a lot harder.

@CaRmAgE : There's a passage on Crateria Depths leading to some upgrades that need the Wave Beam to get to. Also, Space Jump is needed to access Draygon's room, no?

1) Shoot, you're right.  That's the only way to get the eastern Crateria Chozo statue.  Forgot about that one.
2) Somehow, I thought Foxhound had Screw Attack in his list. >_<  In order to scale that sandfall, I think you need either Space Jump or Screw Attack.  I don't know if you can skip both.

[CaRmAgE]

Edit: Totally noob question, but where is the gate puzzle near Spore Spawn? The one with a Power Bomb pack?

[spoiler]Go to the PB in the NW corner of Brinstar.  Part of the floor can be bombed, but only before getting Crocomire's Power Bomb.  After that, the maze can no longer be accessed.[/spoiler]

[Foxhound3857]

Cool, thanks. Found it. Hoo boy, this looks fun. Guess that means I need to grab Wave Beam too. So that probably means Wave Beam is skippable in EPBC low% though since you don't need to disarm statues.

If I have to, I'll incorporate SJ or SA into the collection pool when I get to that point. Can you even get Screw Attack without Space Jump though? There's the puzzle, but you'd have to IBJ or Shinespark up the shaft once the gate is open, I'd assume?

[CaRmAgE]

I don't know if shinesparking up there is possible in this version, but IBJ will definitely work.

[Foxhound3857]

Okay, I've got the first gate open for this puzzle, now I need to do the second. I assume I need to reach the other side but I don't know how.



Truthfully, I don't mind this puzzle so much. This is actually helping me improve at IBJ so I'm benefitting from it.

And yes, I hit the super missile switch below.

[Elminster]

Oh I've lost my sanity long ago, don't worry about that.

I've been thinking about low% in general and trying to determine whether EPBC would result in a lower percent or not. But I'm assuming you haven't completed EPBC yet, so I'll address both paths separately.

There have been 8 new posts made in the time it took me to type this, so I may fail to address things mentioned in those.

[spoiler=Non-EPBC]Most Zebetites take 17 missiles (I believe a few of them take the standard 11). I think 14-15 + 1 super would work, but I'm not in a position to test this right now.

3 power bomb packs are required. The initial one, the one in the hand of the West Crateria Guardian, and one on a pedestal on the way to the West Brinstar Guardian with only one tile of space below the ceiling.

Hi-Jump is probably skippable with IBJs. Note that it is possible to IBJ underwater.

If what carmage says is true and Speed Booster can be obtained early by getting the fake early power bomb in Brinstar (and creating a pseudo-EPBC state due to skipping Crocomire), then Grapple is probably also skippable with several tricks. I don't know what kind of repercussions skipping Crocomire would have throughout the rest of the game, because I don't know how any of the other EPBC checks work.

The normal entrance to LN requires shooting out 8 super blocks, so using the Grapple entrance might be ideal (again, à la pseudo-EPBC route), but this would probably require picking up Grapple since it's in the way.

Space Jump is a big question mark for me. I believe using a spikespark would allow getting up the Draygon sandfall without Space Jump, as it does in the original, but I can't remember the precise layout of that room. If you're not familiar with spikespark, it's a glitch involving unmorphing at the same time as taking damage from a spike, and then sparking on a specific frame, this stores one free shinespark to be used wherever you want.

Skipping Space Jump poses another problem for the new location of the East Crateria Guardian (and possibly the new East Norfair Guardian if Grapple is skipped). For the Crateria one, it should be possible to spikespark across to the guardian, and survive an acid bath on the way back using a reserve tank. I'm not sure if you can survive an acid bath on the way back from Norfair's guardian though.

Speaking of the East Crateria Guardian and spikesparks, it should be possible to skip Wave by using spikesparks to circumvent the gate by breaking the speed floor near the power bomb room where the guardian was located in the original, and then breaking the speed wall in the hallway to the left.

I have heard that it's possible to get Bombs early by avoiding tripwires to get back to the landing site after missiles, and then abandoning the EPBC and damage boosting up the vertical shafts you're supposed to wall jump up, but I couldn't get this to work myself. Maybe I'm missing something. But if that's possible, Wall-Jump can likely be skipped.[/spoiler]

[spoiler=EPBC]EPBC has some advantages in low% because it forces you to skip Wall-Jump, Bombs, Gravity, and Space Jump and you do not have to worry about getting guardians, but it also forces the collection of Hi-Jump and Grapple. It has been theorized that Grapple (and thus all of LN) might be skipped by simply using a spikespark to obtain Hi-Jump early, but this poses a problem for a few rooms in Maridia, most notably the sandcanyon to the left of the Central Express Elevator, so I don't think this is going to happen.

Since EPBC doesn't have to get guardians, the 2 additional power bomb packs can be avoided. However this would leave you with only 1 power bomb. The hell run requires 3 of them for bomb jumps, and I don't think it's possible to refill them during the hell run, since everything is set to drop energy during it. There also may be other permastuck situations on a low PB count that I don't know off the top of my head. Also, you won't be able to crystal flash, so have fun with Lower Norfair.[/spoiler]

[Foxhound3857]

I was going to say that EPBC low% might not even be possible because isn't it necessary to be able to CF in LN because of some of the things you have to do, the shinesparks and the damage boosting in particular? I know you needed it a lot for certain things, namely damage boosting off the Deseega after you dealt with Golden Torizo, on top of all the shinesparking you did. You would need a minimum of 5/5/6 to be able to survive the place in EPBC, would you not? And 5/5 won't cut it for Zebetites with Supers horrible firing speed.

But skipping Crocomire actually changes things? I was going to fight him anyway just because it's a challenge run, but now you have me wondering if it's even possible to reach him after grabbing the fake PB pack in Brinstar. I wonder if I can just fight him and then not collect his PB pack, only picking up the two necessary to access the guardians.

(the reason why I want to skip Crocomires pack is because it gives 3, and being a challenge run, I'm trying to do this with the minimum required resources, but if skipping this one creates route problems, I may just skip the fake one in Brinstar and grab this one instead)

Do the Super blocks on the way to LN respawn if you leave the room, or do they stay gone?

If I have to pick between SJ and SA to progress, I'd rather have SA so I have an actual means of killing tougher enemies later, but I'll wait and see if either are indeed necessary to reach Draygon. Maybe I'll take a screencap of the room layout once I get there.

Regarding the East Crateria Guardian, I remember actually getting up into that room via shinesparking. You're talking about this one, right?



If that lets you skip Wave, then yeah, should be doable. I got up there once before with some fancy shinesparking.

[Elminster]

It's not strictly necessary to CF in LN, no, but it would require some rather ridiculous energy management. You'd probably want Ridley's e-tank, meaning you have to have less than 4 tanks so you can still grab it. The first shinespark I do isn't even required, it's more of a luxury than anything.

You can reach Crocomire just fine after grabbing the fake EPB. He needs to be alive for you to get early Speed Booster though... but I see no reason you can't kill him after getting Speed.

For the purposes of low%, each item picked up is considered equal. Doesn't matter if the item is a 1-pack, 2, 10, whatever.

The Super blocks in LN will respawn unless you've broken the very bottom one, after that they'll be gone forever.

Yes... I'd almost forgotten, it's possible to get through that floor in East Crateria with a standard shinespark using the fish to climb up. I opt to spikespark because it's easier for me, but what you did works too. You still need another spikespark for the speed wall to the left, though.

Here's a video of the spikespark glitch, for reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXm-Z_H-cq0

[Foxhound3857]

Okay, so basically I either need to route this to get the fake PB in Brinstar and enter LN through the alternate path (shinesparking the Grappling Beam), or just grab the PB pack from Crocomire and change the missile allotment to incorporate 8 Supers to enter the normal way. That'd mean picking up 3 extra packs of Supers instead of just 1 then. I wonder if doing it this way would make it possible to lower the allotment of regular Missiles, but I'm still worried about the death laser Zebetites. If they take 17 and Supers do 5 times the damage of regular Missiles then 12+1 should be sufficient, but I'd have to test this. And 12 would still amount to a higher item% than 15 because you'd have to pick up two packs instead of one.

You didn't have WJB or Bombs when you did LN in your EPBC. Will I have to do the same things you did to get out if I go that route (damage boosting off deseegas and stuff)? It'd be some crazy energy management going this route too because of no Gravity Suit and insufficient ammo to CF.

Now I'm curious about IBJ underwater though. This is something I definitely have to test when I get there.

Anyway, I think what I'm gonna do for this first run is just grab what I know are gonna be the essential items to do things normally (including 8 Supers), see what death laser Zebetites require in Tourian and what items could probably be skipped in the next run, and go from there. The second run I will probably do LN the back way.

Also, I'm still stuck on the fake PB gate puzzle.

Edit: Also, seems like skipping Grappling Beam would be impossible any way you route it. Even if you don't need it to progress in most places, if you don't grab it then you can't get Speed Booster, and if you skip Crocomire to get Speed Booster early, then the only way to escape is through LN, in which case you have to get Grappling Beam anyway as it's directly in the way.

[Elminster]

Supers do 3x the damage of missiles, not 5x (that's only for doors). 5/8 isn't enough to open MB's tank, so 15 missiles are going to be the bare minimum in all cases.

I'll try to explain the EPBC stuff with regards to Crocomire and the LN entrance a little better because it's rather complicated. I might spell out some things you already know, but I want to be 100% clear on this. Short answer is: I don't know if you'll have to do the same things I did if you enter LN early.

[spoiler=Major EPBC spoilers]So, the EPBC is simply a series of conditions that are set up to change roomstates and railroad you through a specific route. It also unlocks the entrance to Tourian as if you had disarmed all the guardians. These roomstate changes, as you've probably seen from my playthrough, include locking doors, creating solid walls to block off normal progression, and some other fun stuff like no health drops in LN.

One of these such roomstate changes is in the lava lake on the way to Speed Booster. In EPBC, you are required to get Speed before Grapple. So what happens is that the game spawns a platform in the middle of the room, allowing you to get across without grapple, by means of damage boosting.

In EPBC, you are also forced to enter LN after getting Grapple, simply because the path forward through grapple gauntlet is blocked off by a solid wall. You know the bridge in the room right before grapple, that gets destroyed by an earthquake after entering grapple's room? You need to use that bridge to charge a shinespark to break the speed blocks for that LN entrance. Only possible on the first trip since the bridge gets destroyed on the way back - this is why early Speed is important.*

In EPBC, enemies in LN will not drop health, and there is rising acid in many rooms were there is not during a normal playthrough.

I initially thought all of this stuff was handled by a single global EPBC flag, but other people have said that the roomstate for the lava lake is a result of Crocomire being alive, and that health drops don't spawn in LN due to not having Gravity.

Essentially what this means is that if your playthrough happens to fulfill these conditions, it may result in certain rooms being the EPBC versions of those rooms, despite not doing the true EPBC (and only grabbing the PB in Brinstar). I don't know what all the triggers are. The path you have to take in LN for EPBC is due to a bunch of locked doors, and having WJ or Bombs isn't going to help that any. For all I know, the trigger for those doors being locked could be not having Gravity.

I mentioned above that the reason you get railroaded into LN in EPBC is because the grapple gauntlet has a solid wall that prevents you from progressing. I have no idea what specifically causes this wall to appear. If it's also because Crocomire is alive, then yes, you will have to go through LN. Will you have to do the things I did? I don't know, that depends on what triggers the locked doors and rising acid in LN.

Now, if you ARE allowed to progress through grapple gauntlet, what you can do is simply break the speed blocks going into LN, leave, and come back to that entrance once you have Gravity. Basically keep in mind that the entire point of utilizing this entrance for a low% is to avoid having to go through that 8-super blockade the intended way.

One potential solution is: just go kill Crocomire after getting Speed Booster. If you aren't doing the true EPBC, you should be able to get to him (though again, I can't guarantee this because I don't know how all the triggers work). Also, I'm not sure whether the Crocomire triggers I've been mentioned are tied to his death, or to grabbing his PB pack. If you have to grab his PB pack then that's an extra item and doing the Brinstar EPB/early Speed might not be the best option.

* So I did say LN entrance via Grapple is only possible on the first trip, and that's why it requires having Speed already.... however, you can come back at any time with a spikespark and break open the entrance that way. If you end up having to kill Crocomire and can't get early Speed, this will be the only way to skip the 8-super blockade in LN.[/spoiler]

I hope I was able to clarify this well enough. The ramifications this has on low% are extremely complicated and there are a lot of unknowns still.

I don't actually know how to do the gate puzzle for the early Brinstar PB, I haven't done it myself. But the only way to really test things at this point is to get that PB, get early speed booster, and then continue on as normal.

Edit: Going to quickly address your edit. If Grapple is going to be skipped in a non-EPBC route (i.e. regular LN entrance and 8 supers), there's no need to go down to grapple's area, thus you won't get trapped. You do have to go down there for a guardian, but you can delay that until after Gravity, at which point you won't have to deal with the lava, and you should be able to just IBJ out.

[Foxhound3857]

That does clarify some things, and some of those things I had already considered as well. If I get early Speed Booster via skipping Crocomire, I'd go back and kill him anyway, so in that case, if I were to break open the alternate path to LN and bypass grabbing 8 Supers (I'd have 4 instead), I should be able to still escape the grapple gauntlet and leave Norfair the normal way, which means I could come back after getting Gravity suit and probably Space Jump as well (being that it's probably required for at least 1 or 2 guardians), and LN would be much easier in that regard.

But regardless, I'm going to test this and find out if the trigger (for the wall blocking grapple gauntlet escape) is tied to Crocomire himself, grabbing his PB pack, or if it's just a global EPBC flag. If it's the latter, it shouldn't be a problem since this is not an EPBC run. If it's the former, I should be able to just kill Crocomire, open up the alternate path, then escape and come back when I'm better equipped, and if the trigger is grabbing that PB pack, then it's just one more item to grab (or life is going to become very very hard because i'll have to skip that item and brave LN without Gravity).

I can test all this IF I can solve the PB puzzle in NW Brinstar, and right now I'm utterly stumped.

Edit: I'm a dumbass. This is what I have SMILE for.

[CaRmAgE]

Wow, lots of things I didn't know about (didn't know you could IBJ underwater).  Totally forgot about the spikespark, too.

[spoiler=Non-EPBC]I don't know what kind of repercussions skipping Crocomire would have throughout the rest of the game, because I don't know how any of the other EPBC checks work.[/spoiler]

AFAIK, Crocomire only blocks two doors, both in Norfair.  The one below Wave is merely an annoyance that you can walk around.  The other one near Screw Attack requires finding a way to pass through the Screw Attack room without Grapple, either by shinesparking across the top or taking a lava bath.  Totally agree with you that there should be no harm in killing him after Speed Booster (AFAIK, he doesn't affect anything else).

[spoiler=Non-EPBC]The normal entrance to LN requires shooting out 8 super blocks, so using the Grapple entrance might be ideal (again, à la pseudo-EPBC route), but this would probably require picking up Grapple since it's in the way.[/spoiler]

The tunnel is only three blocks high, and you only have one shot at a shinespark due to the vanishing platforms, so I'm inclined to believe you have to take it if you go in that way (unless you can somehow use a spikespark to work around it).

I was going to fight him anyway just because it's a challenge run, but now you have me wondering if it's even possible to reach him after grabbing the fake PB pack in Brinstar.

The thing that blocks you from fighting Crocomire is not having Bombs.  Drew said it himself earlier in this thread.

If that lets you skip Wave, then yeah, should be doable. I got up there once before with some fancy shinesparking.

Not sure what you mean by that, but Samus will automatically move around the walls if you shinespark straight up from the bottom of the shaft.

Also, I'm still stuck on the fake PB gate puzzle.

[spoiler]The shaft you're showing in the screenshot leads to the last switch you should trigger (at the top).  One of the other three requires going through a hidden 1-way tunnel.  [spoiler=1-way tunnel switch]When you first enter the maze (right before the big drop), try going left into the wall, then hold right on the way down.[/spoiler]  Once you've gotten that and the other one at the entrance, you should be able to get the IBJ one before the big shaft.  [spoiler=Big shaft]Getting past the big shaft requires breaking the extra blocks in advance, then doing long bomb jumps to get to the top.  Once there, you have to do a diagonal bomb jump-into-IBJ to reach the switch.[/spoiler][/spoiler]

[spoiler=Major EPBC spoilers]Will you have to do the things I did? I don't know, that depends on what triggers the locked doors and rising acid in LN.[/spoiler]

All I know about LN is that Gravity triggers the pickups.  I have no clue with turns off the rising acid, but it's definitely not Gravity; I went in through the alternate entrance without Gravity on a normal game and the rising acid never happened.  There were still some locked doors like in the EPBC, but I think part of that is because some of the doors have to be opened from the other side first (the door next to the recharge station in the upper half of LN is one such door).  No clue about the doors that are normally blue during a normal playthrough, though.

[personitis]

[spoiler]I mentioned above that the reason you get railroaded into LN in EPBC is because the grapple gauntlet has a solid wall that prevents you from progressing. I have no idea what specifically causes this wall to appear. If it's also because Crocomire is alive, then yes, you will have to go through LN.[/spoiler]

I can confirm that Crocomire being alive does not affect the appearance of this wall. I got the early Brinstar Power Bombs, skipped fighting Crocomire, and did not see this wall after Grapple Beam (though I do see which one you're talking about on Danidub's map).

[Foxhound3857]

Carmage: At the time I didn't know that Samus could maneuver around small edges during shinesparks, so I did things the hard way and froze the Skultera's to reach a higher platform that was unobstructed by platforms above. Took a bit of practice but it wasn't that bad.

So I have to DBJ into IBJ to get up the big shaft where the last switch is. I didn't even know DBJ was a thing in Redesign. Is there a video of this anywhere? It sounds incredibly tough to do.

[personitis]

Video of me doing the last bomb jump to the last switch for early Brinstar Power Bomb. I didn't bother recording the whole switch maze because this is by far the hardest part of the entire sequence and having video reference of just the bombs here I felt was important and would be less effort than recording the whole puzzle.

[Foxhound3857]

Sick, thank you for that personitis. It's gonna take me ages of practice to do that without tool assistance, but I was able to pull it off with save states at least.



I'm really gonna have to practice that. It feels very weird and unnatural. I'll save that trick for the second run.

Edit: Okay, so some things I've noticed about suitless underwater.

[spoiler]One, suitless underwater IBJ is definitely a thing, so Hi-Jump is skippable from the looks of it (though would involve some IBJ getting to Crateria Depths from what I've seen). Crouch jumps also still work with underwater suitless, getting almost the same height as a normal Hi-Jump.

But the way IBJ works with underwater suitless, actually having to execute it again and again just to clear platforms as you climb room after room...tedious doesn't even begin to describe it. It's mind-numbing. It's easy to do (in comparison to normal IBJ), sure, but the gain in height from consistent, well-executed underwater IBJ is PAINFULLY slow, and some platforms I literally require dozens or even hundreds of bombs just to clear a ledge two blocks above me. If I thought underwater suitless was bad WITH Hi-Jump...boy, it would invoke Satan if I ever dared utter the words.

Oh, and the wall jump shaft you have to get up to reach Lost Caverns. Without Hi-Jump, it's impossible to gain height in this shaft off the wall jumps, which makes WJB by themselves effectively useless at this part. Without both Hi-Jump and WJB, IBJ would be the only way to get up this shaft, and it would take an eternity to do it, with one mistake costing you minutes of progress.[/spoiler]

[Foxhound3857]

Okay, so I've finished up Maridia and got Space Jump from Botwoon. This is a first look and it might change in the future, but as of right now I'm ruling this item as a mandatory pickup. Three rooms present a problem without the mentioned upgrades.

[spoiler]Room 1:


I can't find any spikerooms even remotely close to this to attempt to execute a Spikespark, which pretty much rules this one out. Nowhere nearby to store a Shinespark either, and carrying it this far would likely be impossible given the terrain and lack of slopes in the area to refresh. So you'll need either Space Jump or Screw Attack here (and Screw Attack I'm not even sure of).

Furthermore, you need Hi-Jump here as well. Basic jump height is not enough to clear the platforms because of the sand effectively capping you to 2 jumps, since you are no longer submerged in water. Crouch Jumping would be of no use here because you'd have no momentum to get to the other side. Likewise, the sand rules out IBJ. So for now I'm ruling Hi-Jump as mandatory for this one as well.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]Room 2:


The room to the upper left that you can see on the map is the path to Draygon. Same deal here, there's a sandfall here as well. Nowhere even remotely close to get a shinespark or a spikespark to bypass it, and IBJ is worthless here. Hi-Jump isn't needed here, but Screw Attack won't cut it because of the overhang. You need Space Jump here.

Possible exception: With the presence of Skulteras, it MIGHT be possible to Damage Boost up to that ledge?[/spoiler]

[spoiler] Room 3:


Same thing, nowhere to get a spark. Space Jump is needed. I don't think Screw Attack is enough here, at least not for the middle gap. Hi-Jump is not necessary here though.[/spoiler]

Hey Elm, if it's possible, could you get me a screenshot of what the sandfall room looks like in the original Redesign? I'm curious as to where you would normally execute a spikespark in the original to bypass this room.

Oh, and this room, on the way to Botwoon.

[spoiler]


Without Hi-Jump, you will need to IBJ up the left side of the wall. The sandfall caps your jump height too much, even freezing the Choot won't be enough here.[/spoiler]

[Drewseph]

This is incredible guys, good work figuring things out!  I should release my ASM when FINAL is done. still cleaning up some features.

[Quietus]

Oh, and this room, on the way to Botwoon.

Does it sway to the side enough that you could freeze it to the left, then IBJ from the top of it, rather than all the way from below?

[Foxhound3857]

Oh, and this room, on the way to Botwoon.

Does it sway to the side enough that you could freeze it to the left, then IBJ from the top of it, rather than all the way from below?

Not that I've noticed, and the sand is very finicky. It will affect you if even a small portion of your sprite is touching it.  But the ledge you need to IBJ from isn't that much further down, maybe half a screen. If you CAN use the Choot as a boost for the IBJ, the problem is that, if you mess up, the Choot dies and you'd have to leave the room to respawn it, which is a lengthy process because of the enemies, the platforms and the sand pits. And if you don't kill it and start to IBJ up the left wall, it might knock you back down. So I feel it's more of a hindrance then a help.

So I've finished Lower Norfair at 16.2%, taking the normal route via 8 Supers. I honestly feel the alternate route will be easier than this on the next playthrough simply because you'll bypass having to deal with so many Giant Dessgeega's and Brown Pirates at the offset, both of which do huge damage even with Gravity and take forever to kill with just the Ice Beam (and you can't afford to expend missiles on them because of all the doors). Power Bombs were actually my best weapon here, but I was sorely missing not having Screw Attack for this part.

The boss fights weren't too bad though, I got them both on the first try. Charged Ice by itself is honestly not that bad against boss fights, it would seem. Certainly stronger than Vanilla.

Anyway, the hunt for the statues begins now. According to Elm, one more PB pack is unavoidable in getting one of these statues (and I don't mean the one to the right of the ship), so I'll probably end up at Tourian with 16.8 or 16.9%. And I'm fairly confident I could cut this by about 2% on the second playthrough, dropping 2 Super packs and the WJB.

Side note: Elm, I'm not sure if you knew this, but you mentioned something about the short freeze timers during your stint in LN, and I think you assumed it was one of the EPBC changes? I just ran LN the normal route with only the Ice Beam and encountered the same problem; freeze timers are very short. I think this is just the nature of LN itself; it's super hot so things would naturally thaw out faster if they were frozen. But it's not related to EPBC in any way, it seems.