On people carting ROM hacks

[Vismund Cygnus]

If someone turned around and made profits off of a product you made and release for free then I say you have every right to be upset about it. :/

I'd say that would be entirely the fault of the person who paid the money for it, for not doing their research and finding out that they could have got it for free from the original author. If another person resold the work for money, well then nothing was stopping the original author from selling their work for money anyhow.

Generally speaking... if it were up to me, there would be no such thing as copyright.

I agree that it would be the person's fault if they were to buy it. They were stupid for not researching it, as you said.
Although having no copyrights would be a huge issue in my opinion. Imagine the amount of indie/non large-scale organisations that would go out of business because their creation was ripped off by a giant company who could produce it cheaper/in larger quantities. Like say, an author writes a book, somebody re-prints 4,000,000 copies of it and sells it for 1/10th of the price with none of the profits going to the author? Without copyrights that kind of thing would happen all the time.

[Zhs2]

The concept of copyright is quite alright. In practice, however, most of your argument is negated by the fact that giant companies are the ones who have the time and money to put them through anyway. There will always be people who are angry that somebody else is making money off of ideas that may be very close to anothers' due to another clause I like to call bullshit: intellectual property. It just doesn't make any sense when at least one hundred people will have had the ideas you've had and before your time. The question is how well you can execute it with your own bare hands; if you can pull it off right, then you will have something worthy of copyright (have fun putting it through the due process of court, though.)

[Lunaria]

Comparably, I think the devs would be pissed (and rightfully so!) if someone started making physical copies of Firefox and sold for profit. I really don't see any merit in your argument JAM.

My merit is "if there are no new carts from Nintendo why no one shouldn't do it?". I mean, c'mon, those who have SNES should have something new.

No, get off your god damn high horse. No one is entitled to any new games for a system that has been dead for over a decade; If you feel entitled to such and the act of being able to buy new games for a system that are many years old then you have a serious problem regarding your outlook on the gaming market.

And yes, there are already disks like "internet starting kit" with a lot of programs placed on it. Browsers, download managers, messengers etc. It's illegal, of course, but useful like "all in one". Even if all these stuff is free, there isn't too much profit for those who selling it (you can buy such one for about $5).

The fact that you're blatantly supporting selling software made by other people without the rights to do so for a profit, even commercially, tells me all I really need to know about your moral standpoint. :/

If someone turned around and made profits off of a product you made and release for free then I say you have every right to be upset about it. :/

Sorry, I don't see any big problem here. Someone got profit. People who bought it are happy. And only one person is upset because of that. I can understand author, who prorably don't want to his hack beign carted...

It's not a problem with people carting the hack, in fact, you'd be hard pressured to find ANYONE who have a problem with that. (And if they do they are a stuck up twat as far as I'm concerned.) However, selling and make a good chunk of profit on it is an entirely different problem. You obviously don't share my moral standpoint on this issue, and I suppose that's fine; But from a legal standpoint it would be illegal. (AFAIK based on my very limited legal knowledge. (Oh and don't try to argue you have anymore experience in that regard as well know that would be bullshit.))

It's not the customers fault or problem either, in fact, anyone actually buying these things are unrelated, it's the act of selling for profit that is the problem.

...but in 1997 they said like: "Sorry, SNES is dead. No new carts, no parts and labor, no support. Better buy our new awesome console Nintendo 64 for just $600!". Even NES support was stopped in 2009. So, I all can do is play the hacks on emulators or make a wads for Virtual Console...

...but I can't understand comments like: "This is wrong! This is illegal!". This is the only way to get the new games on SNES. If I could, I'd made several carts by myself... But it's hard and long. It's like vinyl. To make new, you should use old.

This is entirely fucking unrelated as ROM hacks would not be manufactured in a legal manner anyway even if they were made back then. And obviously when a system is not profitable to make anymore it is going to stop being manufactured.

In fact, I'd stress it so far as to say if you're this darn anal about it than one can buy the factory equipment (Which would most likely have to be a custom order since it's super old stuff!) and then power the machinery needed to make old type components from raw material. But you know as well as god damn everyone else that it's not going to happen, ever; As it's expensive as fuck!

Time moves on, shifting the blame on something like that on Nintendo or retro content creators is fucking stupid. <_<

In fact, I'd stress it so far as to say Nintendo is even actively trying to make their most best selling old titles (meaning the ones with the biggest market) available on god damn every system they make. Don't like playing the same game on a new pad on a new system (but with the same god damn experience!)? Too bad, get with the fucking times!

I can prorably give permissions to everyone to use my hacks as base for future hacks or use stuff from my hack (with giving the credits). I'll be upset, if someone will remove the credits written by me or change 2 rooms or so and claim this hack as his own. Sometimes, I'm fixing errors in older hacks, but I'm always saying like: "Hack by ..., fixed by JAM". And also I can't understand comments like: "Oh, no! This stuff was ripped from Redesign! How could you?" from people who mostly would like to rip something, but couldn't.

As a content creator we own the sole right to give out whatever right we want about the content we own. Yes, you could give away such rights as you explain above, but please, for the love of god: Stop dictating what rights other content creators should or shouldn't care for.

Oh, and for reference: Editing someone's else work (even bug fixing) is illegal unless you have the right to do so in the first place; even more so if you distribute it. Hence, this is why ROM hacking is such a legal gray zone: What we are doing is not actually legal. (However, everything we, ourselves, make IS owned by us.)

In fact, such practice is indeed illegal in many places, and while I doubt anyone here would go to court with it if they could (since that costs a fuck lot!) the only reason people can't is that ROM hacking is in a legal gray zone.

Not everyone are going to court when they don't like something (even if they have money). Sude for every thing you don't like is stupid.

The statement was not really about whether or not you or me think it's right to sue over it; It's about the fact that you'd have a legal right to do so and make a pretty darn good case. :/


PS: god damn I'm tired I should probably not answer an argument before going to bed, but fuck-it!

[Quote58]

"I'll be upset, if someone will remove the credits written by me or change 2 rooms or so and claim this hack as his own"

If you believe that, I'm surprised you're arguing GK point. What they are doing, regardless of the age of the system and availability of it's carts, is taking someone else's work, putting it on a cart, and selling it for themselves.
The point here is, they might as well be changing a room and claiming it as their own as they obviously don't give a fuck whether the content creator knows or cares what they are doing, yet they take the hack, change one thing (now it's on a cart!) and sell it. The creator gets no money from it, not even a simple request for permission to sell it, which I'm sure most people would give.

[ProjectXVIII]

Gotta agree with JAM here, I don't get what all the buttmad is about. You guys are losing absolutely nothing from these people selling carted hacks. I honestly think everybody is just mad because somebody is doing what you're all too scared of Nintendo to do: sell hacks. I could understand if they were taking some kind of profit from you, or saying that they made the hack, or something like that, but they aren't.

First of all, the SNES isn't that incredibly popular in the first place. Not many people care about it anymore. Even less care about hacks. Even less have the money to buy these, and even less WILL buy them even if they have the money. Maybe if this was some kind of widely known thing with commercials on TV and shit, but it's not. I doubt these people even make that much of a profit from this.

I fail to see any logical argument here other than "Well they could've at least asked...", but you know what I have to say to that? You could've asked Nintendo about hacking their games. But you didn't. You chose to do it behind their back. Kinda funny how hypocritical people can be sometimes, isn't it?

[Zhs2]

The only argument against asking Nintendo being because doing so is pretty much a death sentence to your hacking career if they decide to drop a bunch of lawyers on you. That's still a pretty big if - even Nintendo has limited resources and the necessity of discussing this behind a committee before engaging in the highest voted course of action gained from at least 12000 months of deliberation on the matter. This is all beside the point, though. If it's worth doing, it's worth doing right! (And by that, I mean bypassing all obstacles and doing what you really love. Asking Nintendo is silly. It'll never happen.)

[FullOfFail]

Although it's definitely wrong to do without getting the hack's author's consent first, it's not too big of a deal other than that to me. It may serve as a good thing in the end because your hack now has a physical form, and may show people completely oblivious to our trade what can be done, and further spark curiosity and inspiration. The only thing that really concerns me is the unnecessary heat it may bring with it. I don't want to compare it to bootlegging, but it kinda is. I'm worried that Nintendo may come after us authors instead of the one's that distribute it. Money changes the equation quite a bit.

[Lunaria]

Actually if I recall correctly Drew did approach Nintendo about having Redesign available on VC... at least that's what I recall being claimed years ago. Obviously they said no.

Edit:
I should note that anyone that does want to play the game on real cartridge can get a flash cart, for the hobbyist it's more likely cheaper as you can reuse it! So yeah, even with the people who want to play hacks on real hardware not everyone are going to buy reproduction carts; It is, indeed very true that the market for this is super slim, however, I don't feel that is any sort of justification for it. :/

[Digital_Mantra]

Comparably, I think the devs would be pissed (and rightfully so!) if someone started making physical copies of Firefox and sold for profit. I really don't see any merit in your argument JAM.

My merit is "if there are no new carts from Nintendo why no one shouldn't do it?". I mean, c'mon, those who have SNES should have something new.

No, get off your god damn high horse. No one is entitled to any new games for a system that has been dead for over a decade; If you feel entitled to such and the act of being able to buy new games for a system that are many years old then you have a serious problem regarding your outlook on the gaming market.

Calm down. I totally agree my SNES should have something new to put in. It's why I'm still hunting down games and buying a powerpak in the near future.
Nothing high horse about that, it's just nostalgic and has nothing to do with our outlook on the gaming market (that's an entirely different topic).

[ommadawnyawn]

I see a lot of promotion for repros and rom hacks on YT these days. What are the risks when producing and selling your own stuff, do any companies take legal action? I'm considering doing it for my Alex Kidd hacks.

[Quietus]

I've been around the ROM hacking scene for probably twenty years. It's only been in more recent years that these sellers have appeared, but in all that time I've never really heard of anybody actually being fined or arrested. The worst I'm aware of is a few cease and desist orders being issued, but they're mainly for projects in the works (and usually being quite open about using the brand), rather than completed projects being sold.

[RealRed]

It is, however, highly immoral to sell ROM hack reproduction carts on a commercial level like this. :/

Hah!

ROM-hackers are amateur programmers/designers/tinkerers with absolutely no professional practice in designing gameplay and/or level design.

If someone comes around and feels as though they could profit from the submission of free, un-copywritten materials, why should we lament them for being entrepreneurs?

It's the ROM-hacker's fault if they automatically presume they cannot have a market.

[ommadawnyawn]

I've been around the ROM hacking scene for probably twenty years. It's only been in more recent years that these sellers have appeared, but in all that time I've never really heard of anybody actually being fined or arrested. The worst I'm aware of is a few cease and desist orders being issued, but they're mainly for projects in the works (and usually being quite open about using the brand), rather than completed projects being sold.

Thanks, never heard of anything like this either. I've just contacted these guys about an order and if they want to sell the game: https://www.pikointeractive.com

@Everyone: Message me if you're interested in the info I get.

[Lunaria]

It is, however, highly immoral to sell ROM hack reproduction carts on a commercial level like this. :/

Hah!

ROM-hackers are amateur programmers/designers/tinkerers with absolutely no professional practice in designing gameplay and/or level design.

If someone comes around and feels as though they could profit from the submission of free, un-copywritten materials, why should we lament them for being entrepreneurs?

It's the ROM-hacker's fault if they automatically presume they cannot have a market.

That's the same retarded argument that moders don't sell their creation because they don't think it's worth money, where as, a lot of mods would in fact be perfectly sell able and people would buy it, for the right price. Imagine actually being able to sell those optimisation patches for games? Or for all the extra content some moders make. You'd be able to make a living only moding games like fallout 4, etc. Thing is, you can't sell mods due to copyright and IP protections.

It's perfectly fine if you think stuff like this is not worth copyrighting, but that's your opinion, not a fact. I should also point out, that there is obviously a market for these hacks, given that people buy the repro-cartridges. :P
It's also worth noting that anything you make is yours. Yes, you can't sell your hacks given the fact that you're using another base game without actually having the rights too it, but neither can anyone else. Since anything you make is owned by you, the end hack is a product in which has several layers of ownership, and as such, would probably be very hard to even get a license for to sell in the first place, even if attempts were made to strike a deal.

Repro cart makers who deal in ROM hacks are exploiting both the original creators copyright, and yours.


The reason that I don't think any company has taken the time to put the hammer down on these people is because they are so small scale, it really does not affect them too much. And companies like Nintendo mainly wants a hands-off approach to ROM hacks, for the most part. If they started to deal with reprocart makers, they'd also have to start dealing with the sources for the hacks as well. Which is also why taking legal action against reprocart makers is pretty much suicide for any ROM hacker, even assuming they have the funds to make a case. Because they would by proxy drag in the original copyright holders too.

So yes, I can agree, reprocart makers are smart fucks, but that does not make their actions any less immoral or illegal.



Also, who the fuck bumps a three year old thread like this?

[Vismund Cygnus]

I find it ironic that you'd say that RealRed, considering what happened with you several months back.

Also Lunaria, the original necrobump was

I see a lot of promotion for repros and rom hacks on YT these days. What are the risks when producing and selling your own stuff, do any companies take legal action? I'm considering doing it for my Alex Kidd hacks.

[RealRed]

I find it ironic that you'd say that RealRed, considering what happened with you several months back.

It did, and it was an eye opening experience.

[Narpas Sword]

I would be willing to buy a reproduction cart directly from the developer/hacker.

I already played the hacks for free but I'd like to add some hack repros (Ice Metal Uninstall, Eris, Phazon, Super Zero Mission and Hyper) to my Metroid Game collection.

So what do you suggest?

[thedopefish]

Necropost notwithstanding, my suggestion is that a flash cart (like an sd2snes or an everdrive) is a far better solution for playing hacks on a real SNES than getting individual repro carts.

[Narpas Sword]

I really don't care to play hacks on the real SNES. I want these reproductions as collectibles.

[thedopefish]

If you're never going to actually play them, you could just print out custom labels and slap them on any old SNES cart.

If you're dead set on the collectible aspect and don't care about practicality or cost, then go ahead and hit up somebody online who makes repro carts and have at it.  But in that case, I'm not sure what you're asking us about.

[Boured]

I'm sort of agreeing and disagreeing, as an owner of a cartridge of Hyper Metroid I feel that Reproductions should be made with a few rules. One is that the customer buying the game knows it's a reproduction of a Rom hack they can play for free, but would like to own it in physical form for perhaps swag points. I dislike on sites like eBay when sells say it's a SUPER RARE NEVER BEFORE RELEASED GAME FEATURING DANTE FROM THE DEVIL MAY CRY SERIES, it's false advertising and should not be permitted.

So in short I think it should be ok to sell reproductions as long as the one buying them knows its just a physical copy of a ROM hack that they can play on an emulator or flash cart.