On people carting ROM hacks

[A_red_monk_called_Key]

Also, I'm not sure what version of the patch they are using, but someone is selling a Phazon reproduction cart. I saw it come up in my news feed on Facebook on some Super Nintendo page. I have the latest patch of Phazon on cart as I made my own, but thought you guys might be interested in knowing about this. Link is below

[spoiler]http://store.retroquestgames.com/snes-other.html#!/~/category/id=4618131&offset=6&sort=normal[/spoiler]

thats messed up. thanks for post this Riffman81

[MATHGODpi]

@&^$(*#&^*^@ :mad: :mad: :mad: :nowai: :nowai: :nowai:

People like that are the ones who ruffle the copyright trolls and ruin things for the rest of us.

[The Envoy of the Beginning]

That site also has a fair number of other ROM hacked games >_>

[Digital_Mantra]

There were ppl in Brazil that were selling copies of Eris 09.
I just ignored it but it irritated me.

Also, this intervention is no longer needed.

[Cloud20]

There were ppl in Brazil that were selling copies of Eris 09.
I just ignored it but it irritated me.

Also, Phazon Hack.

It is inacceptable
first : hacking isn't a lucrative practice, just creative, the opposite is clearly illegal
second : you are the owners guys, theses people are making money on your creations, it is possible to send them a message ?

In short I'm shocked  :whoa:

[A_red_monk_called_Key]

i think if there was some information on the main page about carting your own ROM, were to find cheap blank cartridges, box art, and tools/programs exe.. most of the people who play SM hack come here, and wouldn't spend money on something they can do there selfs

[Daltone]

yeah that retro quest guy is a bit of a retard. i lurk the nintendoage forums where they homebrew NES games and other stuff, this guy wants to make new SNES games but he seems so dumb that it will never happen unless someone is stupid enough to give him their game for him to sell. the only thing that i like that hes done is getting new shells for the carts made.
there are alot of people putting hacks on carts and selling them, not just that guy. i think they should at least let the people that made the hack know, or ya know, ask. you should demand free copies of stuff!

[Zhs2]

Split this topic for posterity. Sorry Riffman, I stole your post and put it into Red-Monkey's.

The main thing about carting ROM hacks is the fact that it is indeed expensive, and people do make money off of it because the parts are quite difficult to find nowadays (in fact, I'm sure we've had this discussion somewhere else before.) I wouldn't be opposed to hosting a document detailing how to create your own if you wanted to put forth the time and effort, however. This is also not to say that the people selling carted ROM hacks are in the clear or what they're doing is even legal, but I haven't heard of any cases yet where reproduction cart builders get bombed by copyright.

[Lunaria]

It is, however, highly immoral to sell ROM hack reproduction carts on a commercial level like this. :/

Although, preventing these sort of things can be easy in way, all you have to do is make sure the hack does not run on real hardware (Use bsnes to test that.) The downside, of course, is that it hurts hobbyists that want to put hacks on flash carts, etc. :v

[Quote58]

"It is, however, highly immoral to sell ROM hack reproduction carts on a commercial level like this. :/"
Although I agree with this, I think the bigger issue is that they are doing it without even asking the creator.
I mean, if they're making money off of someone else's creation, then they should at least have to get consent first.

[Daltone]

Although, preventing these sort of things can be easy in way, all you have to do is make sure the hack does not run on real hardware (Use bsnes to test that.) The downside, of course, is that it hurts hobbyists that want to put hacks on flash carts, etc. :v

yeah lets make snes games that wont work on snes! lol

They prolly dont make more then 10$ a pop after their time, labor and parts lol, i imagine its time consuming doing everything like lables and the fine soldering so really for how much they get paid an hour i wouldnt be angry at all. also risking a lawsuit which i dont see happening but regardless.

[A_red_monk_called_Key]

if people are informed they wont make an uninformed decision like paying $95.00 for something that most likely cost less then $5 to make. i don't know any thing about carting so if someone could post some likes i'll put some thing together.


not a bad idea Crys. i have a small improvement, one could complete there ROM and cut the ending and post a cartable .ips then finish the ROM and post an Uncartable .ips.  then you could play the hack to the end on SNES but never get the full game(people who pay money will be pissed) maybe even leave a message at the end were to find the full game.

also i'll start working on an ASM for adding a message before the nintendo logo

[Lunaria]

They prolly dont make more then 10$ a pop after their time, labor and parts lol, i imagine its time consuming doing everything like lables and the fine soldering so really for how much they get paid an hour i wouldnt be angry at all. also risking a lawsuit which i dont see happening but regardless.

The amount is not really what it's about though; ROM hacks are distributed for free as modifications of a game. Imagine it more like... say, firefox that everyone can download for free on the net, but suddenly someone decides to put firefox on a disk and sell it for a small profit. (Obviously not the same amount of effort, but regardless that's not the point I'm trying to make here.) Not only would such a thing be immoral, you're also pretty much shitting all over the original creator of the software who gave it away for free (for X reason) and making money off of it.

Scale also matters, I know for a fact that there have been cases were people have put Ice metal on a cartridge to play, which is not only perfectly fine, I kinda like the thought of someone thinking my hack is good enough to make a real cartridge of it! And heck, if any person who made reproduction carts decided that: "Fuck, my friend really like this game too, if he pays me the material costs and possibly a small sum I could make him a cart too!" I'd not be against that either. But there is a firm line to be drawn between a hobbyist making something fun for him and [insert small amount of friends here] and a commercial store that sells these things for obvious profits.

[Daltone]

Please dont make alternate versions of your hack, i dont use emulators anymore and i won't play your hack if it doesnt work.

And putting a disclaimer before the nintendo logo wont do anything, there is a hack of mike tyson's punch out that the creator asked specifically not to cart, even for personal use, not sure if he has a screen w/ text saying this in the rom, you can buy this repro from some stores lol.
I have bought a repro but its for earthbound zero since i couldnt find an official english cart.

Just hack your wii or get a flash cart/ copier. then you can play all of them and you dont have to give some douche money.

noone is charging 95$ and if you pay it you deserve to be ripped off, dont be silly people!

[Lunaria]

<- Point | You ----------------->

[Digital_Mantra]

I think it's all perfectly fine if you're informed and any other copies made and sold are pretty much just covering the cost and within a small group.
That way the hobbyist who carted it isn't making money off you, but at least getting back some of what they pooled into the carting project.

In Red Monkeys case...
Demand a free copy (hell demand 3), you have 2 friends that want copies.

[A_red_monk_called_Key]

I think it's all perfectly fine if you're informed and any other copies made and sold are pretty much just covering the cost and within a small group.
That way the hobbyist who carted it isn't making money off you, but at least getting back some of what they pooled into the carting project.

In Red Monkeys case...
Demand a free copy (hell demand 3), you have 2 friends that want copies.

were?

Phazon isn't my brain child alone. if any thing, every tester, and every person that said i don't like this or there is a glitch here should get a free copy


Daltone your right, we should let greedy people wreck things for others.

as for the disclaimer it would just say something like "if you payed money for this please return and visit www.metroidconstruction.com/bla/bla to learn more about getting this ROM carted for less then (cost here)"

[Quietus]

Essentially, while we can gripe about it, there's no way we can really control it.  Just accept that it happens, and move on.  I know it's annoying, but that's just what some people are like.  Perhaps we could use the Samus text intro screen to put a message on there, saying "This modification is free.  If you paid for it, you were ripped off!" :^_^:

[Daltone]

I know im hard to understand lol,

I just mean don't worry about it, or if you do just google snes reproduction carts, look for yours and if its there find a way to get ahold of them.

most of the ones ive seen are not charging for the game at all, clearly saying its for labor and parts. which i would believe since i wont do anything for anyone for less then 18$ an hour.

[JAM]

I don't understand, why there are so much butthurt about it?

People will play your hack on emulators. Do you get profit? No.
People will play your hack on real console. Do you get profit? No.
So, what do you lose? Instead, you should be happy that more gamers (hardcore ones who play only on consoles) will play your hack. Yes, someone (who selling it) got some profit, but again, what do you lose? It's hard to get 4Mb carts, you know. And they are not cheap, AFAIK.

As for me, I'll glad if someone will play my hack as real cartridge on real console. But I'd wrote credits like "hacked by...".

In my country, SNES is dead. Officially. No new games, no hacks on cartriges etc. And price on cartriges are starting from $10. And there are not so good games. Good games you can get from $25 and above. With manual and box -- from $40. It's even hard to get parts and labor to repair the joystick at least. Used half-working joysticks are selling from $15 and above.

For Genesis and NES there are absolutely different situation. NES cartriges (pirated) are selling from $3. Genesis cartriges -- from $2. A lot of clones for Genesis and NES was made. At least 5 new games are made every year. A lot of joysticks are made. I can even play NES games using comfortable controller in Sony or SNES styles. New joystick costs about $5. See the difference? All of these are because of pirates and hackers.

[Lunaria]

Comparably, I think the devs would be pissed (and rightfully so!) if someone started making physical copies of Firefox and sold for profit. I really don't see any merit in your argument JAM.

If someone turned around and made profits off of a product you made and release for free then I say you have every right to be upset about it. :/
In fact, such practice is indeed illegal in many places, and while I doubt anyone here would go to court with it if they could (since that costs a fuck lot!) the only reason people can't is that ROM hacking is in a legal gray zone.
However, saying that people can't be upset about it is quite frankly dumb.

(edit: to clarify, I am replying JAM's post on the previous page.)

[Riffman81]

I've been making my own reproduction carts for a few years now. Dman's SM: Eris was the first SM hack I carted successfully. And yes, I've been guilty of selling them in the past to friends I know personally or sometimes I'll get ppl on forums request I make them a cart. Even had a few ppl here... and you know who you are.

My point is this, I don't agree with "commercially" selling the repro carts. That's why I originally posted the link... But I don't totally disagree with selling them either. Seeing that link made me come here to see if Phazon had been updated... and I thought Red Monkey might like to know about the repro cart. For me, it's about the pure joy of playing the game on real hardware, with real cover art... etc. Getting that feeling of having a new SNES game to play like we did back in 1994. Learning how to make these carts is a pain in the ass, and to be honest, very time consuming. Parts are not cheap, not to mention the hours you spend looking for the correct donor boards/carts, cleaning them, removing labels, printing, doing cover art. Materials are costly as well, so most of the money I've made making them for others, has went back into buying more materials.

I can't see paying $95.00 for a repro cart. I believe Super Metroid Redesign is being sold for that. Although that hack does require two chips to have a successful reproduction, there's no way in hell someone should pay that kind of money for it. These ppl are obviously making a little on the side. I think $30-$50 is a decent price range and helps pay for materials. I make carts now for my own private collection, so I wont get into the debate of it being "right or wrong" or if it's legal. However, let me remind you all that none of these sites have gotten any letters from Nintendo telling them to shut down... gamereproductions.com has been around for over 5 years now... and timewalkgames.com has been around almost 2 years.   

[Lunaria]

Nintendo has been proven to be very passive about their copyrights in regards to the gray zones though; Hence, why very well known places like SMWC still strives. :P

[JAM]

Comparably, I think the devs would be pissed (and rightfully so!) if someone started making physical copies of Firefox and sold for profit. I really don't see any merit in your argument JAM.

My merit is "if there are no new carts from Nintendo why no one shouldn't do it?". I mean, c'mon, those who have SNES should have something new. I'd prorably buy some carts to play on real console, if Nintendo will make some new carts with old games (at least), but in 1997 they said like: "Sorry, SNES is dead. No new carts, no parts and labor, no support. Better buy our new awesome console Nintendo 64 for just $600!". Even NES support was stopped in 2009. So, I all can do is play the hacks on emulators or make a wads for Virtual Console.

And yes, there are already disks like "internet starting kit" with a lot of programs placed on it. Browsers, download managers, messengers etc. It's illegal, of course, but useful like "all in one". Even if all these stuff is free, there isn't too much profit for those who selling it (you can buy such one for about $5).

If someone turned around and made profits off of a product you made and release for free then I say you have every right to be upset about it. :/

Sorry, I don't see any big problem here. Someone got profit. People who bought it are happy. And only one person is upset because of that. I can understand author, who prorably don't want to his hack beign carted but I can't understand comments like: "This is wrong! This is illegal!". This is the only way to get the new games on SNES. If I could, I'd made several carts by myself... But it's hard and long. It's like vinyl. To make new, you should use old.

I can prorably give permissions to everyone to use my hacks as base for future hacks or use stuff from my hack (with giving the credits). I'll be upset, if someone will remove the credits written by me or change 2 rooms or so and claim this hack as his own. Sometimes, I'm fixing errors in older hacks, but I'm always saying like: "Hack by ..., fixed by JAM". And also I can't understand comments like: "Oh, no! This stuff was ripped from Redesign! How could you?" from people who mostly would like to rip something, but couldn't.

In fact, such practice is indeed illegal in many places, and while I doubt anyone here would go to court with it if they could (since that costs a fuck lot!) the only reason people can't is that ROM hacking is in a legal gray zone.

Not everyone are going to court when they don't like something (even if they have money). Sude for every thing you don't like is stupid.

For me, it's about the pure joy of playing the game on real hardware, with real cover art... etc. Getting that feeling of having a new SNES game to play like we did back in 1994. Learning how to make these carts is a pain in the ass, and to be honest, very time consuming. Parts are not cheap, not to mention the hours you spend looking for the correct donor boards/carts, cleaning them, removing labels, printing, doing cover art. Materials are costly as well, so most of the money I've made making them for others, has went back into buying more materials.

Exactly! This is what I was trying to say.

I can't see paying $95.00 for a repro cart. I believe Super Metroid Redesign is being sold for that. Although that hack does require two chips to have a successful reproduction, there's no way in hell someone should pay that kind of money for it. These ppl are obviously making a little on the side. I think $30-$50 is a decent price range and helps pay for materials.

$30? I doubt. To make most of existing hacks on expanded ROMs, you should buy 32 Mbit cart like any one of Donkey Kong Country, Doom, MK3 / UMK3 or some others. And these games are not cheap at all.

[MATHGODpi]

If someone turned around and made profits off of a product you made and release for free then I say you have every right to be upset about it. :/

I'd say that would be entirely the fault of the person who paid the money for it, for not doing their research and finding out that they could have got it for free from the original author. If another person resold the work for money, well then nothing was stopping the original author from selling their work for money anyhow.

Generally speaking... if it were up to me, there would be no such thing as copyright.