Cave story + (Or: why you should not buy from Nicalis)

[Lunaria]

I'm sure many of you have seen Cave story + and or have thought about picking it up; I strongly suggest you don't though.

For those of you that go to Jul this will be old news, but I felt the need to spread the word. For those that want the proof.
What Nicalis did was take the original fan translation done and changed it up a bit for it so no one would notice, and yes, this holds true for the wii version as well. Here comes the kicker though, several aspects of the Cave story + release where in fact done by the cave story fan moding community (Which I should note, was rather big in the past and is not all unlike our own.) and where straightly taken, inserted and now, sold. Without any credit given to the mod makers, but that should be a given.

Now, I would not mind buying Cave story + normally for my 3DS so I can have it portable and get some more content. But when the company doing it makes profit from doing nothing but ripping of the fan community (quite literary) and the original maker, it brings up the question whether or not one wants to support that.

This also brings up the question if Pixel have any say in anything anymore. (since we have no idea what kind of contract he signed.) Since I doubt he would want to do something that hurts his fan community like this, not to mention, the original translation team, which is one of the reasons his game got so huge in the first place.


I'm not telling you to not buy the game, it's an awesome game. (which the original is still free though...) But you should do so armed to knowledge at least.

[Zhs2]

Basically play the free version with the mods you mention (if you can find them) installed instead of paying the not makers of this game for charging for convenience on something you can play for free. Does that cover it?

Actually, I suppose that only covers it if you're PCing Cave Story. They did the brunt work of porting to other consoles, right?

[Lunaria]

I suppose so, but they did not really optimize it. The PC version still have the DSi files in it even though it does not need them.

[Malpercio]

* Malpercio drops thread link in CS modding community and waits for the fireworks or lack thereof.

[Lunaria]

Drop the source code link I put up instead, that way those with any tech savynes can look it over themselves and either confirm or not. One thing is clear, the script and code annotation is the same in the fan translation and the official one, with the exception of the few changes they made.

[Malpercio]

I dropped the link for the entire thread; Anyone that clicks is going to have the source code link and your argument too.

[CS]

Oh hi there Malpercio. What's all this about then? The Cave Story modding community has submit no mods yet, and NICALiS has taken nothing that's not theirs. NICALiS worked with Pixel on every single Cave Story port,  and they always made sure to check with him before adding something, or taking something away. In conclusion, I don't see where you're getting this information; no one at the Cave Story Tribute Site Forums seems to be mad that something of theirs was put in the game without their consent, because nothing was taken from anyone. Good day.

Edit: In addition, have you seen what they did in Cave Story+ compared to the original? Better graphics, better music, achievements (on the Steam version, at least), and more challenges that will soon be added. Also, this version also allows us to do cool things like boot mods from the Challenges menu. You just sound silly when you say NICALiS is "ripping" Pixel; NICALiS has made Pixel a fairly wealthy man.

[Lunaria]

I'm not very well into the Cave Story moding community, in fact, last time I took part in even lurking was years ago.

But there was a boss rush mod released back in 2007, so have I been told it is. This is the source code comparison of the mod and the official boss rush mode.

The link above is also in the directory I linked in the first post, which also have a comparison of the fan translation patch and the official release.

In case you want a second opinion on Nicalis as well as some more info about the company, this thread could be interesting to read.

I don't believe Nicalis have been taken anything that are not theirs, or rather, nothing they don't have rights for. I just find it shitty to ride on fan driven projects for profit rather then coding the same functions themselves. Also, I find your statement on Pixels and Nicalis business relationship to be ironic, at best. Sure, that's what have been told to press (After all, good press is best press for profits.) but AFAIK no one knows what really is going on.

Edit: My post was made before your edit, but your edit is also interesting. "Rich" is also somewhat interesting for you to say, considering we don't know the profit ratios. Plus if (and that's a pretty big if, don't take this statement out of context) Pixel lost his franchise rights when signing the contract then I think the trade off would be quite too big regardless.

[Malpercio]

I think I saw this on reddit earlier.

I find the claims a bit over zealous since they claim that all/mostseveral of the additions to CS+ were from the CS modding community, but then it only shows evidence that SeriousFace's mod was used as the base for the boss rush mode. Given that the additions to CS+ are the new graphics and music and then the mods, claiming that all the additions are stolen is simply wrong. Even saying the mods are stolen is wrong, it should be singular.

As far as I'm aware (from talking to tyrone a bit), someone emailed him(tyrone) the boss rush mod and asked him if he would use it in the game. Tyrone asked for the name of the person who submitted it but the person never responded. So at this point Nicalis has used SeriousFace's mod, but it is unconfirmed whether or not SeriousFace was the one who sent it in. I believe this issue will be resolved when SeriousFace surfaces again (attempts have been made to contact him but he hasn't exactly been around).

But I believe Xkeeper is very bold to say that they stole the 'mods' from the community. Seriously, it's singular.

[Lunaria]

Actually, the plural statement is correct, since the fan translation is indeed classified as a mod.

[CS]

In a video, Pixel is with Tyrone Rodriguez (head of NICALiS) and they seem to get along like good friends. If I find it, I'll put up a link. Someone emailed Tyrone the source code, and when Tyrone asked who the original creator of the mod was, if it wasn't the person who had sent it to him. He never got a reply. I speak for the Cave Story modding community when I say that we have tried to connect with SeriousFace (creator of the Boss Rush mod) on multiple occasions, but they has not replied. They probably doesn't even care, because if they did we would have heard from them by now.

Why do you persistently allude that more mods were added? Boss Russ was the only one. Translations don't count, and Aeon Genesis is not a part of the Cave Story modding community presently.

I read that post you linked. DeceasedCrab's Cave Story LP is still very much on YouTube. I wouldn't trust that source. Pixel HIMSELF did not want the developers to finish a homebrew Cave Story, because NICALiS would be forced to remove it due to legal constraints. I would rather have a Cave Story DSi that not only is not buggy, does not require homebrew and supports Pixel financially.

[Malpercio]

for convenience, I'm going to post http://cavestory.org/forums/showthread.php?p=146189 this here and this is the point at which I brought up this thread over there.

[Lunaria]

In a video, Pixel is with Tyrone Rodriguez (head of NICALiS) and they seem to get along like good friends. If I find it, I'll put up a link. Someone emailed Tyrone the source code, and when Tyrone asked who the original creator of the mod was, if it wasn't the person who had sent it to him. He never got a reply. I speak for the Cave Story modding community when I say that we have tried to connect with SeriousFace (creator of the Boss Rush mod) on multiple occasions, but they has not replied. They probably doesn't even care, because if they did we would have heard from them by now.

I have seen that interview myself, whether you trust a peoples PR face to be the truth of how the rest is handled (Which it rarely is in most companies) then that's your opinion and you're of course entitled to it. I'm a critic, it's part of who I am to question anywhere and anything which seem noteworthy to bring up.

And while I do believe you and Nicalis as well that you tried your best to find the maker of said mod, that's just not the issue I'm having with this. Arguing that someone does not care simply since they can't be there to defend it is outrageous. It's not outworldish to assume that people move on to other things, it happens all the time on the net.

But the odd thing to me is that Nicalis choose to take the path in trying to integrate a fan mod at all. While I think some of the things they added to the wii version where pointless (And that's just my opinion, mind you.) they certainly seem to be capable to at least some degree code new functions for the game. Making their own boss rush would not even be very hard, since they would only need to code a lobby interface (read: room/menu) (if they wanted to use one) as well as progression. Now, I don't want to badmouth something I have not played, but I'm confident that if they put the effort into it they would be able to at least match if not surpass the quality of the mod in question.

Again, what I want to express that this is mostly an ethical problem (ZeroOne: Told you!) from my point of view. One that could be avoided very easy, and in fact, should have been.

Why do you persistently allude that more mods were added? Boss Russ was the only one. Translations don't count, and Aeon Genesis is not a part of the Cave Story modding community presently.

I'm not saying anything more then the translation and the boss rush where added. I never made any such claims, please don't press me on matters that you make up.

What I'm saying is that the plural statement is possible since (through my eyes and others) the translation is classified as a mod.

I read that post you linked. DeceasedCrab's Cave Story LP is still very much on YouTube. I wouldn't trust that source. Pixel HIMSELF did not want the developers to finish a homebrew Cave Story, because NICALiS would be forced to remove it due to legal constraints. I would rather have a Cave Story DSi that not only is not buggy, does not require homebrew and supports Pixel financially.

I'm not saying that that specific source is trustworthy or that it was reliable, but it does bring more perspective to the table.


Edit: I just decided to read up on your forums thread to see if there where more interesting views. I did find some, I also found a lot of badmouthing behind my back, not quite sure if it was aimed at me or at xk who made the claims in the reddit(?) I did not read that article myself yet. I don't really mind it, I'm used to it, but I do find it awfully rude if it was aimed at me.

Either way, I will try and answer some blank spots:

They retranslated the game themselves with new translators, they said so themselves and that's why they have translators credited in the game. Some of the new translations are even more accurate (like the Bubbline and "Yrots Evac"). Nicalis' translation, when compared to the original japanese script and the AG script, is a much more literal translation of the script, which is why it reads a little less elegantly. However it certainly does not appear that they just 'changed it up a bit'. Of course they going to be similar, they're both translations of the same game.

[Quote Source]
Of course, I'm not saying that they did not have a team that did a re-translation and did in fact end up with almost the same material. But when the fan translations team's code comments are still in, that brings up some questions.


Also, looks like SeriousFace showed up. Acting like any fan would do, and I mean that in a good way, I can relate, or at least partly. But it looks like that puts it to a rest whether or not he was asked if they could use it. It seems to me he implied that it would be used as reference, though, those questions would be directed at him now that he posted, not me. :P

[Malpercio]

Of course, I'm not saying that they did not have a team that did a re-translation and did in fact end up with almost the same material. But when the fan translations team's code comments are still in, that brings up some questions.

This is a bit of confusion that seems to be brought up by the way xkeeper twists his words; there are not really any code comments in the actual game script, either from Pixel or Aeon Genesis. Seriousface has some in his scripts, and those are the files from Boss Rush that we all know about. In my own opinion (and being one of the more involved members of the CS modding community, I know the game and its script fairly well), the Nicalis translation is from scratch. The boss rush mod includes Boss rush' scripts, which were based on Aeon Genesis english translation, but since those translated scripts aren't in any way accessible through normal gameplay then there I don't see much issue in them being there. Granted, it's really lazy to leave all those unused files lying around, but dead code is the least of the problems here.