next »

[Guest]

Caps lock is activated.

[Grime]

Oh boy, here we go. This will either become a very successful milestone or a forgotten failure. As most of you already know, Super Metroid hacking has advanced quite a lot over the last six months or so. Information that was scattered all around has mostly been brought to one place, and a buttload of new things have been learned along the way. A couple good hacks have dropped since then, and some even more promising ones are still in the works. Everybody has their own ideas for their own hacks and how they want to do things, and the vast majority of these ideas are probably awesome.

So why not bring 'em together under one umbrella? There have been smaller attempts at community hacks in the past, but I think it's time we went for the "big one". Y'know, a coordinated, collaborative hack that shines with cool new features, top-notch level design and overall fine-tuning. There is a reason why I call it a "semi-community" hack in the board title, though. All that really means is that I'm reserving the right as the starter of this project to have some creative control over what goes on. I'm always open to new ideas and changes to my own ideas, but I'll wanna be able to say no to something every once in awhile without feeling like a meanie. Cool?

(Don't worry. I'm a pretty reasonable guy, so it shouldn't be an issue.)

Now, here's a little more about the hack itself and what I'm going for with it. First of all, yeah, there's gonna be a good bit of ASM needed (see the "ASM checklist" topic for all of the nasty details). Howeeeeever, I made sure to think these changes over thoroughly. I'm not asking for complex new features or any major overhauls. Most of these involve adding new items to the game that toggle between various hex tweaks, new BTS block types, and implementing things that have already been documented. Some public patch/ASM releases will be used as well, to further incorporate individual efforts into one title. To put it simply, this hack is going to attempt to cram in as much new content as possible, but still make everything work smoothly. A true showpiece hack, I guess. It needs to be tasteful, classy, sexy, big, original, addictive and replayable. Sound familiar?

Nobody will be required to commit themselves to this hack, though it would be cool if you did. I know a lot of you reading this are busy with your own projects and lives (I'm no exception). Contributors will work on a volunteer-basis, so if somebody says "Yo Grime, I'll help you build rooms!" I would then set the room up as needed, send them a patch for the hack and let them go wild.

I will be keeping a very detailed TXT file that logs the game's changes, so we never run into the confusion of 'Who's working on what, now?' By detailed, I mean DETAILED. I'll be keeping track of any free space that's used, every single repoint, item placement/high-low bits, and surely some other things. See the "Changes and To-Do Lists" topic. The To-Do list will be tasks that anybody can pick up and work on. If you decide to grab something from the list, please try to get it done at a reasonable time. If you think it'll take more than a few months, don't bother with it just yet. I don't want to get overwhelmed with "still being worked on" footnotes next to everything. It's not that I'm in a rush to get the hack done, but I'd like progress to happen quick when it does happen.

That's all I can think of to say right now. I'll be posting the ASM checklist topic shortly. The Changes and To-Dos topic will come a bit later once I can come up with a solid and specific list of tasks to complete. If you read all that, congratulations. If you're interested in helping out with this, don't be afraid to throw your own ideas out there. This hack doesn't belong only to me. I'm just the driver.

[DSO]

I'll use this as a question sort of thread:

1. Tilesets. What tilesets are going to be used? All custom made ones, or some re-arranged/mixed original, or all original? I assume that's one of the things you'll have creative control over. If custom, I could volunteer PurplePuke, which itself is small enough to be mixed in with some others (SoAlien + whatever space is left, for example).

2. Is an item progression in mind? People will have to know what the player will have by the point they reach whatever room they're making, and new items and abilities will make designing even more difficult.

3. How big are we aiming? In terms of screens, Redesign was at 2939 by my counting. If things are set too high, people will lose interest before it's finished. Too small, and people won't have enough space to make a fairly decent sized area by themselves, which generally means the style from room to room will change quite a lot and be confusing. Depending on how many show interest, I'd set the goal anywhere from 1800 to 2500, and 250 to 350 rooms.

[FullOfFail]

Instead of just spreading rooms all about, you should assign areas. Because different people's design style is drastically different, and it'd look weird going from a complex aesthetic room, to a more simplistic practical one made by two different people.

[Bloodsonic]

Instead of just spreading rooms all about, you should assign areas. Because different people's design style is drastically different, and it'd look weird going from a complex aesthetic room, to a more simplistic practical one made by two different people.

There could be people that add secondary levels of detail to the levels designed by people with the less detailed design ethic, no?

[DSO]

There could be people that add secondary levels of detail to the levels designed by people with the less detailed design ethic, no?

I feel that would diminish the role of the people with "less detailed design ethics". I feel only you and the project leader (Grime) should edit your own rooms, I wouldn't like having everyone pouring over my rooms and altering them until they no longer even resemble what I first made, because my individual dynamics would be buried in the mud. While you can sarcastically say "But no one will see a need to mess with YOUR rooms", I want that to apply to everyone.  It's kind of based on how I see this hack, I think of it as a collection of talent and ideas from people that all present their ideas as their own, and then Grime is the one to make it flow from place to place.

Point: Grime's not going to accept crappy rooms, so any rooms he does accept need no editing.
Point 2: Too many chiefs, too few workers.

[FullOfFail]

I agree with DSO here. Every person has their own interpretation of how the tiles should be used, so you can't really have multiple people working on the same room like that. It's one thing to fix slopes and a few graphical errors, but design just doesnt work that way. People like me who are more simplistic/practical should work on the flat building/spacestation environments, and aesthetic-based people like grime and dman should work on the natural environments. Just my opinion.

Point 2: Too many chiefs, too few workers.

Well, we need to go ahead and get all this ironed out now. Since it's involving so many people it could easily turn to chaos. I think Grime will be a good leader though, he's knowledgeable, organized, and determined.

[Grime]

DSO: So good of you to ask. This is the kind of stuff I like having made clear but can never remember to do so on the first go-'round. Ideally, I would like if the tilesets were tastefully and cleverly rearranged versions of existing tilesets, with a few custom graphics mixed in for that extra spice. I don't oppose using a completely new tileset, but it'd need to be a good one with lots of terrain variation. I don't favor the idea of ZM/Fusion tilesets just yet, but somebody could try it out and see. I'll be repointing them as necessary, and keeping track of the start/end points for their copied data to make sure nothing gets overwritten. They can either pick one of the game's tilesets and edit them up, or bring in one of GF Kennon or someone else's. This goes for palettes, too. With 64 alternates available, they're encouraged.

I haven't thought too much on the game's storyline or item progression yet. Honestly, I could have waited longer than I did before I dropped this idea, but I didn't want to lose interest or get swept up in something else. If nobody else does, I can throw together a rough order of item collection. I'm shooting for this game to be at least as large as the original SM in screens. A lot of the free banks will be used by tileset repoints and level data. That along with recycling existing level data pointers should be able to stretch the screen count to a very good number. I can't quite see the game becoming as large as Redesign unless I really underestimated how many banks are used for tilesets, but I think we could make an even longer game work if the flame was really going and people wanted to contribute more and more rooms. I think we'd be instinctively know when if it got to be too much.

FullOfFail: If someone wanted to do a new area themselves and had the capability of doing so, why not? But not everybody might have that level of determination and just wanna do a room here and there when they've got some free time and just feel like doing something pretty in SMILE. The original SM radically switched from one tileset/room style to another. ;] That was a collaborative haxlol.

Now, about editing other people's work. If somebody spots an obvious tile error, or a certain palette color that looks noticably off by a shade or two, I don't think anybody would complain too much if it was fixed up. I'll say now that I might do this here and there if it something doesn't feel right. I do it all the time with my own work, hah. I agree that individual interpretation matters, and nobody's toes will get stepped on. Hopefully all involved will have enough humility to handle the idea of their work maybe being slightly modified to fit in better. Record producers go through this shit alllll the time because stuck-up musicians don't want to change a note or three in a song. We'll cross that bridge if we come to it.

[devonodev]

Hmmm... this idea sounds good, in theory.
I can see this working well, but it also has a good chance of failing miserably.
It seems a bit unorganized at the moment, but I'm sure once we get more information about what's happening, it will all start coming together.

I'll gladly help though with room design.  And maybe gfx, but I know there are alot of people better at drawing custom tiles then me.

[MetroidMst]

I could be up for an Eris sized area or two depending on how I like the tilesets. I would find it hard to contribute only a few rooms because I like having twisted mazes that intertwine and a bunch of secret passages.

[Sadiztyk Fish]

I can do ASMz for stuff and yer, and level design if you want it. I actually like this idea, it looks promising. Other noobie community hacks are just like "yer you do all the work and I'll take all the credit". there was a few of them on M2K2 before the revolution. This one actully seems quite organised (well, at least very well thought out) =)

[Daltone]

I'd be glad to design some rooms for this.
What's going on with the other project base? Would we be using your new beefy pallets/tiles?

[Grime]

Yeha, Daltone. The file I've started is a copy from the latest PB, so eventually, what wasn't done yet for PB itself will need to be done in the full hack. Mostly enemy palettes and layer 2 backgrounds.

ALSO, I'd like to clarify now that after thinking about it a bit more, I'm going to insist that all of the hack's tilesets mostly consist of graphics already present in Super Metroid. As appealing as areas with all new GFX are, it's very difficult to make them match the same atmosphere. I know it's not as easy as grabbing an already-ready tileset, but the original graphics can have limitless uses if you're clever enough. It'll give us more incentive to be creative and unique with the environments, tilesets and colors, and as a whole, the game will feel aesthetically consistent. I don't want to break away from the same feel of Super Metroid. But again, I'm okay with some other custom graphics mixed in to keep things fresh, but the more I thought about whole areas or even individual rooms using completely new tilesets that aren't in the original game, the less it jived with me.

There are a few people who are really good at rehashing the game's existing GFX for new area combinations, so if it's not your forté, you'll still have a lot of tiles to choose from.

[Crys]

I'm just going to throw it right out here right away:

I'm willing to start focus on this and making a whole area (using one of the tileset mixes*) after ice metal is released. If you're willing to see to and make sure that this project reaches its end. There is namely nothing I hate more in hacking then wasting my time making something that no one will play, I have done that quite to many times already.

As far as this project goes, I think it's a great idea... problem is getting it from a great idea to the done phase. I'm just going to say right away that if you're not planing to do something, then don't say you're going to do it. That really goes for anything in this sort of project. And most of the time that's the reason most of them fail. However, I am trying to be positive. I want this sort of thing to be made and get done.

Now... to get this right the first time is the best, so... here goes:
I don't want to be charge of this project in any way at all. However... I do want to have my own area for myself. One tileset, and one standard set of palette (aka the ones showed in the GFX editor by SMILE) to work with.
The most preferable tileset combo for me to work with is standard crateria + the maridia quick sand and small green rocks. Though, that being said, I'm fine with working with anything beside brinstar vines and norfair tiles as long as I can make the palette.

Item order or such I don't really care for as long as I get a clear list what player have when they get to the area and what items I should place in the area. The later, of course, I can decide myself, if not care or no list have been made.

Another thing I need to know if there is any elevator from or too the area and how many exits from the area I should make.

But like I said, I won't start with this until ice metal is done so, well... there is still quite some time to fine tune any details and such.

[Grime]

Posting this for squish.

[DSO]

I'd like to make the landing site/starting area and reserve one, maybe two tilesets. I'm most at home working with Crateria and adding some other things in. I'll also do some ASM when I get the time, should we use Glowpatch I'll also be able to do more stuff others might be interested in for their area.

I do have questions about air/fool xray BTS blocks, that is, how do we assign them? Doubtlessly we all have our ideas we want to use them for, but we'll have to share.

[Malpercio]

i have little to no skill with any of the fancy hacking stuff, but i'd love to be a beta tester or something like that.

[Quietus]

You should probably clarify what's happening gameplay wise too.  Are you looking to change any physics or the like?  This'll need to be accounted for when people build rooms, as jumps and whatever will be different.

[Grime]

devonodev: Volunteered to help with room design. How many rooms? What area/tileset do you want to work with?

MetroidMst: Volunteered a whole area. I'm a fan of the way you design things, so I'm looking forward to this. I'm gonna give all of Maridia to you and repoint its tileset. If you fill the tileset up, I can get another one ready. Goes without saying, but try to use as much of Maridia's level data as you can before you start repointing rooms. How many banks of free space do you think you'll need to build this area? Also, I'm giving you Maridia, but the area itself doesn't have to Maridia themed. It can be whatever you want, as long as it's sexy and Metroidy. We still need to hash out a rough order of item collection and area order before everyone starts building rooms.

SadiztykFish: Suuuh-weet. Glad you're pitching in with this. Of the ASM needs listed, which ones do you think you could do on your own? Any idea how long it would take? The sooner the ASM gets done the better, so we know how exactly to build our rooms and accomodate the new stuff. For best results, I think most of the ASM for this hack should be written for and tested on a clean Super Metroid ROM so they can also be used by other people in their own projects if they like them. The community should get more from this than just a bitchin' hack, yeah? I'm sure you know the rest of the drill; make note of every byte that gets overwritten to and free space used. This is to prevent numerous ASM hacks from overwriting each other in the future and causing us pain. I dig your style of level design too, so hell yeah. How much do you want to do? Will you be needing any tilesets repointed?

Daltone: Same questions as above. How many rooms? Gonna make your own tileset or work with an existing one?

Crys: One tileset will work just fine. It'll be repointed and you'll be able to make as many new tile tables as you want. Same goes for editing the palette (you'll be able to use several alternate palettes to full capacity for your tileset if you want, thanks to DSO's blend patch). Crateria + quicksand is just dandy, as long as there's more to it than that. I personally am fond of that tileset you painted awhile back, with the purple/green colors. ;] Don't be afraid to go bananas and make the tileset big and detailed with multiple area themes. I'll get back to you on the exits and elevators later on. I haven't planned that far ahead yet. You okay with taking Wrecked Ship as your area?

Quietus: The physics so far are taken directly from Project Base. Those working on rooms will be given a patch of what I have so far for the full hack, so they'll be able to test them with the physics as they are. Aside from a few small tweaks, they will mostly remain the same.

Oh yeah, and a note to everyone who'll be doing rooms: The difficulty of this hack will be considerably easy compared to most hacks. This is because it will hopefully reach a larger audience, and we don't want people who can't walljump or know about mockball to get stuck and be turned away from playing the game anymore. In other words, no required walljumps (I know the original game required them at one point, but that was just to teach the player), infinite bomb jumps, or absurdedly hard-to-find secrets like passages in the middle of barren walls that are high above the ground. Always try to leave subtle hints to your hidden items/passages/whatever, and make sure that the area is built with the item that's placed there in mind, so it doesn't feel like it was stuck in last-minute. To keep things simple, I probably won't adjust the suit divisors or damage that enemies deal too much. If the player is killed, it should be because they suck at maneuvering Samus, not because a certain enemy killed them in 3 hits. Y'know, kinda like the original game most of the time.

[MetroidMst]

Maridia? Quite large, but at least most of it already has layer 2 BGs in it so I won't need to repoint that stuff. I have no idea about how many banks I'd need. I'd say just one. I will almost definitely need to repoint the smaller rooms, but the big rooms should be fine and I won't be needing 5000 for a 1x3 room.

I don't know exactly what tiles I'd end up using yet. Most likely the Norfair Bubbles, and then whatever else I can find that I think would fit my area.

And while I'm here. Do you expect me to use the Maridian bosses as well? I just want to make sure I'm building some rooms correctly for any bosses.

[FullOfFail]

I'll design a few rooms, doesnt really matter what tileset. I'll wait and let you assign me something. No rush.