Truth, Misinformation, and Everything in Between

[squishy_ichigo]

* squishy_ichigo is about to get all Hiroshi Mishima in this place!

Those of you who are stubborn brickwalls with no room in your life for contemplating such things are urged to leave now, and save yourselves the trouble.
Those of you who simply enjoy the taste of trolling those who you judge to be incompetent are also urged to leave, as it will be frowned upon in this setting.
Those of you who remain will be taken for a trip that I can only hope will be interesting. I can only guess at how many people will respond to this post, what their opinions on things are, and the things that will spawn from that.

[spoiler=And so it Began]
I don't know about you guys, but every once in awhile, that silly little thing I will simply call "Existence" creeps into my head, and I puzzle the many different layers of it all. I contemplate the meaning of our existence, its origins, and its future. I marvel at how many different possibilities these different paths could take, and I think to myself I alone will never scratch the surface of this multifaceted word.

I'll begin with why I'm starting this topic I suppose.  Today at work, it was like any other day, but somewhere in the middle of it, I started thinking about my story that I've been working on for ages. Its all in my head atm, nothing really to show for it, so lets not get to into that, but one of the points in it is this very thing we are talking about, Existence. I have toyed with several ideas, each one better then the last, but today I thought of something else.  I can't recall the exact details leading up to it seeping into my head, but now its there, and who knows where it will go from here.  I began to question something I had never in the past, science.

It has always been easy for me to question religion. I'm sure the mast of the intelligent people in the world do the same thing, but to what extent I don't know.  The fact that SO MANY different groups of people believe different things, and worse that they are correct in their beliefs, has been a clear sign for sometime that something was amiss. In my younger days, I simply dismissed religion entirely, an atheist if you will.  As I grew older though, I began to see religion in different ways, one of which, being a necessary foundation for our society.   I began to realize that I was actually an agnostic atheist. But even more time went by, and I became a little more familiar with the concepts of the origin of existence, and I noticed that I was pushing more and more towards creationism. I, an agnostic atheist, who KNEW that the world was deluding itself with all of its f.religions began to question myself.

This brings me to the title of our little topic.

What can you, YOU, truly say you know for 100% to be true. How much of what you know is misinformation, or misinterpreted information.

Recently, (as a few of you might recall) I had created a topic on a certain "conspiracy" in the hopes of creating an interesting point of conversation and debate. Overall it didn't get as deep as I was hoping it would, but it was still interesting.  At the time I wasn't quite sure what to believe.  I was already aware that their were people in the world who questioned their government, and the things that it does, but it was the first time I myself had done so on such a level. I was curious about how these people who believed this conspiracy thought, the way they perceived information, and the outcome.  I then came to this community with this information to see how the people I knew who react to it.

I realize that a lot of what I'm saying is just nicely worded rambling, but I continue non-the-less.  Misinformation is nothing new. I can only assume its been around since people began to communicate with each other.  As such, we (read: humans) are quite good at manipulating one another.  Its really not hard to do this, especially with people who have less intelligence then you do. I'm sure that you see this everyday, if not partake in it yourself.  A great example would be trolling. I'll let you fill in the rest of that one, moving on! Misinformation is a great way to manipulate people, especially the masses. I can't say either way how much misinformation we as a society are fed, or on what level it is, but we are, so how can you REALLY believe anything your told and can't prove yourself?  I mean, I began to question science ITSELF today, something I have always used as a safety net.  The implications can be quite deep, but I'll let you guys speak on that, I'm simply here to say "what if" and "think about it a little while", etc.  Opening your mind to the possibility that you really don't know anything at all, do you?

I'm going to go ahead and throw this in your court now kiddies, despite the fact I could go on quite a bit more, it would be wasted energy until I see what you think.
Take this topic and go anywhere you want with it. Religion, government, origins of existence, widespread misinformation, conspiracies, the list goes on.
I threw quite a few fragments at you, with quite a bit implied. I didn't explain a lot of things on purpose, to see how it would be interpreted by YOU.

Go for it.
[/spoiler]

[Quietus]

OK, here're my views on a few things you mentioned:

Religion: Originally created to control the masses in a society where the people became too numerous to control through governing alone.  Fear of hell leading to control of the people.  Religion, or at least the parts of a religion that you choose to ingest, are nice as a lifestyle CHOICE, IF you feel it enriches your life.  Otherwise, there may be better fashion accessories for you.  Try something different - you might just like it.  Don't take it as a whole, but see what you can learn from it.  I personally see bibles as do-gooders guides (not a bad thing), and if people just took the good parts, and adopted them as good, moral values, then the world may well be a better place.

Creationism: Through evidence and exploration, there is now too huge a mountain of evidence to support the evolutionary theory, so the theory of creationism (which still has NO evidence to support it) is almost impossible for me to believe.

Misinformation: Realising that you know nothing is the starting place of true knowledge.  I spend every day trying to learn as much as possible.  Not about any one topic, but whatever is offered.  What does a person truly know but that which they experience themselves?  Never take anything at face value.  Always question things.  Every single piece of information currently available all came about because somebody said who, or what, or why.  People should thrive on learning, as it's enriching, and I see it as the only route to our next evolutionary step - lest we stagnate further, and die off through some incurable disease or whatever (war?).

I think that'll do for now. :^_^:

[Lunaria]

I was an atheist, just questioning and ignoring religions. But I later realized that even though I think the beliefs are stupid, wrong, and lack logical bases. The people who argue against it seam to have no bases for as of why it was wrong either. Therefor I eventually began to identify myself as an agnostic. Something which I have lived with for many years and still don't regret it to this day.


But somewhere in the back of my mind I knew that there had to be some answers to the questions as of what lies after death and how the world was created. So I asked my questions to other agnostic people and while they all gave me an answer, or the lack of an answer, I eventually dismissed them all. However, quite recently I found the perfect answer to both questions, something which I had only dreamed of that I would find in my life time. And as of such, ever since my discovery of the truth I have been a truly dedicated pastafarian, and spreading the word of truth out everywhere I go.

[Qactis]

And as of such, ever since my discovery of the truth I have been a truly dedicated pastafarian, and spreading the word of truth out everywhere I go.

RAmen

[Lunaria]

So what kind of pasta did you have today?

I ate macaronis! :3

[Quietus]

what lies after death and how the world was created.

Not aimed specifically at you, but this sort of thing is another human weakness.  Not being able to accept that we don't know is tough to do, as we automatically strive for answers all of the time.

Personally, I believe that nothing happens after death.  I believe that a person, as in their character and stuff, is a collection of reactions to different stimulae - a sum of their life's experiences, and they react to certain things in certain ways due to those experiences.  Since a person is no longer experiencing those memories - being dead - then there is nothing else TO happen.

[squishy_ichigo]

Its nice to see other people with similar view points Quietus. :P

I'm more or less the same way on everything you posted on, but it doesn't stop me from pondering existence every once in awhile.

edit: I'd like to point out here, about my comment on creationism. As I've said, I've been a firm believer in science for many years, and as such have believed evolution.  But more recently, as I ponder existence, I've toyed with the notion of them both being correct and related. How? Pffft, hell if I know.

[Silver Skree]

[spoiler]

I believe that a person, as in their character and stuff, is a collection of reactions to different stimulae - a sum of their life's experiences, and they react to certain things in certain ways due to those experiences.

[/spoiler]

Now, if I may interject for a bit.

Firstly, when you think about things, you question them. Your questions, as you continue to answer them, will always give rise to more questions, and these will always begin to boil down to a series of 'why' questions on a progressively smaller scale. There must come a point where you simply cede and accept that something behaves the way it does and move on. There are people that never cede and continue to ask and question. We call this progression, when it is not stopped, 'insanity.'

On religion for a moment: I'd be an agnostic, though I was raised christian baptist. I don't try to think about the dimensions above us too hard, because it's impossible. Anything you can fathom up would probably be misinformation. We have ideas, and we say 'probably,' but there is no way to prove them. We don't even know the nature of dimensions or how cleanly separated they are. It's all theory with no sure way to prove any of it. This relates to what squishy said about questioning science. There are some things we'll never (or perhaps not for a very, very, unimaginably long time) going to know for truth. And keep in mind Quantum Nature. Truth? Truth could be A, B, A and B, or neither A nor B all at the same time. I don't try to think about it too hard. My mind isn't made to work with such things.

Although I don't believe in much religion, most of them teach good behavior. Allow me to go a little into what I call my 'Personal Bible.' It's a collection of thoughts, memories, feelings and desires that govern my conscious being, and that I strive to integrate into myself at as close to a base level as I can. It is how I believe all people should strive to behave like; if everyone in the world behaved by this, we would achieve Paradise. I'll tell you two of the earliest memories I can still consciously remember that helped build this Personal Bible, though that doesn't even begin to scratch the surface.



My earliest, clearest memory: My childhood friend, Audi, was over at my house. I didn't know it at the time, but he was part of a very poor family. We were going to play the NES. As we looked through the games list, my eyes settled on my favorites. However, Audi saw Sesame Street and wanted to play that. As he played it, I asked, "Why would you want to play such a simple game? That's for babies." My mother pulled me aside and told me that Audi might not be as smart as me, and that I should let him enjoy that which he is capable of enjoying.
Among other things, this founded and awakened in me a great sense of awareness and sympathy for those less fortunate than I and a rule to always show kindness, hospitality, and patience to those less gifted than I.

My family and I were all gathered in the living room. There was a huge thunderstorm outside. I was worried and scared. My parents said to me, "There is no use in worrying over something you cannot control."
This very important component of my Personal Bible instilled in me a great sense of calmness and detachment.

I've actually been trying to see how much of my Personal Bible I can get down in writing. It's hard to remember it all. I'll tell more anytime, anywhere. If you want me to go on, just ask.


If I may take this post off on a tangent for a little longer now...
Let me equate my Personal Bible to a seed for a little while. It's always been planted in me, and had sprouted and shown itself periodically throughout my life. However, there was a period of Winter that pervaded my entire being. This was pretty much my school years, Middle to High school in particular. I acted rude and cold, my detachment over-expressed itself as apathy, and I distanced myself from all but three people that would become my very good friends. Suffice to say, I didn't behave like I should have.
Towards the end of high school, the winter became less harsh, though my heart and mind was still in a half-dormant state. There are records of my behavior on the internet during this period on the MDb, and those who knew me when I first began to hang around #sr388 will remember how immature and power-hungry I was.

It was only in the last quarter of my Senior year that I met katsu, who would go on to introduce me to a very special anime for me, 'Clannad.' Clannad... yes, it's an anime, but damn ye if you tell me it's just an anime. You'll have to watch it for yourself and make your own opinion of it, but it taught me a lot of very important lessons and touched home with me very strongly. The end to Clannad ~After Story~, the second half of the series, is the only point in my entire life that I was genuinely crying while feeling happy (the happiest I had felt in years) and wearing a smile on my face. That winter's cold air and snow was blown out of existance entirely. Clannad as a whole has ingrained itself into my Personal Bible. It obviously may not have the same kind of profound effect on others, because people's situations are different, but it caused me to undergo what I came to call my 'awakening.' If you've ever heard me talking about my Waking Up where literally coming out of sleep doesn't make sense, that'd probably be it. Going back to the seed analogy, at this point my heart completely bloomed. I discarded my old ways of thinking, like fears of being rejected based on what I say and think.
It pretty much gave rise to the 'me' you know today.

Just felt like sharing that with you guys.


In any case, we are here, and it is now. Calm down and take time to pay attention and be sensitive to the things around you. Spend a little time and be nice. Take what you will and bid the rest adieu, then take a step forward and do it again.

[Crashtour99]

I suppose I'll start out by saying that I consider myself to be a "spiritual athiest".  That is, I don't believe in any sort of deity, but there's still plenty that science can't explain yet so I use my experiences from occult learning, religion, and philosophy to fill in those gaps for me (so you get an idea where my perspective is coming from).

Misinformation:  There's a lot of it out there.  Especially in science. 

For instance, take the word "theory".  A lot of folks think it means something like, an educated guess or something, when in fact it is a hypothesis (which IS a guess or idea) that has been tested and proven to be true.  If it can't be tested, it isn't a theory, therefore it isn't science, much to the creationist's dismay.  Of course this extends into some "accepted theories" in science as well, like the Big Bang.  The Big Bang Theory doesn't tell us anything about what banged or why it banged, and it's not testable so really it belongs along with all the other ideas about the creation of the universe.

Another bit that has a bunch of misinformation surrounding it is evolution.  A lot of the folks that I talk to about it seem to think that it has an end point or goal of some sort.  And it doesn't.  It merely describes a process.  Now there is some kinda fringe science that suggests in certain circumstances it can be driven by the organism's biological imperatives for survival and produce much needed mutations in a shorter time than traditional Darwinian theory would allow.  That just shows that we don't know everything about how it operates yet.

Personally, I believe that nothing happens after death.  I believe that a person, as in their character and stuff, is a collection of reactions to different stimulae - a sum of their life's experiences, and they react to certain things in certain ways due to those experiences.  Since a person is no longer experiencing those memories - being dead - then there is nothing else TO happen.

^  This.  I could get into my thoughts on "souls" and such, but I think I'll just leave it be unless someone asks or wants to know my opinion on such matters.

[Parabox]

Nothing really exists to me anymore. I used to cling to my little cogito ergo sum, I think therefore I exist. Slowly I started to notice that I had less and less control over myself, mind, body. I am replaceable, and am going to be replaced. Someone else is taking over. Reality is what you make of it. Feel the nothing, trust in no one.

[Quietus]

there's still plenty that science can't explain yet

That's what I love about science.  Not specific subjects (although they interest me too!), as those have already become the sciences, and are just records of our learnings, but science as a whole, being the search for answers to the things we don't know.  It's not waffling about what we already know - that has become fact through the acquisition of evidence, and is less interesting to scientists (to a degree, of course).  The unknown is what it's all about - the search; the journey.  Science is the only thing that actively seeks the answers to things we don't know, and thrives on the search.  It isnt afraid to say "we don't know, but let's find out."

[Hiroshi Mishima]

* squishy_ichigo is about to get all Hiroshi Mishima in this place!

First off, you have no idea how much I was laughing at this, and must therefore acknowledge I've become a trope. :p

What can you, YOU, truly say you know for 100% to be true.]

Gonna be a little weird and say:

I know 100% that:

1) Cats are wonderful (but that doesn't mean they don't cause problems)
2) Being injured really does hurt (even though there's times you barely feel it)
3) This world we live in is but one aspect of a larger whole, and there's a whole lot more that so many cannot see either due to physical limitations (most common as the Human eye can only see so much), ignorance willful or otherwise, dogmatic insistence that what science/religion tells you is the truth and you must believe it.

All that aside, I've not the time to actually post in here and will hopefully do so later.

EDIT: [spoiler=Okay, so it's later now...]

I don't really feel like going into a long-winded, typical Hiroshi Post (tm) styled post, and will simply comment on my own thoughts and feelings in a limited fashion. The fact that it may take me a whole paragraph to say one thought just shows how complicated (ie; inefficient) my thought process is at the moment.

Insofar as Religion is concerned, I don't deny the possibility of various gods and goddesses as the multitude of faiths believe or place faith into, but I do not personally put my eggs in any one basket. I'm open to the possibility that such beings or lifeforms exist and are so different from Humanity as to be perceived as gods and goddesses (not unlike that one episode of Star Trek where they encountered Greek gods on a planet), but that's about as far as I can go at this point in time. Regardless of what facts there are or aren't, I would feel foolish if I said "They aren't real" because that excludes the possibility that they may have existed at one time or another. I personally feel that all religions have problems and there is no one true religion. As Silver said, they may have been created with good intent to give people hope for a better tomorrow or to instill some common sense or just good advice, but the sad fact is that today they are more often seen serving the unjust causes of 'monsters' and madmen who would use them as an excuse to murder, rape, and wage war.

What do I know with 100% certainty? That many people are either totally ignorant of the flaws in their own religion and the problems said religions cause, or that they are in denial that such atrocities are committed. I feel that far too many place religious doctrine/dogmatic thinking over common sense and may in fact even confuse one for the other. Surely it goes against common sense of survival to kill one another over the most trivial of matters, just as it should go against common sense that "the one true god" is telling you your enemies are wrong when their "one true god" is saying the same thing. Does it not occur to anyone that both are right or wrong depending on how you view the matter? I believe that people don't stop to look at things more clearly and rush into situations.

Of course, I also believe that I'm in a minority of thought on a lot of things and though it makes me sad, it doesn't exactly surprise me, nor does it stop me from thinking the way I do. And that's just a small matter of what I'm trying to say, and probably explained poorly and incorrectly. I don't know.. I enjoy words and writing, but it can be so difficult to get my thoughts out properly that sometimes it feels like I have to go through a maze just to find what I'm trying to say.

If I were to say "I know what I know, and just because I cannot make people see truth in what I say it doesn't change my own experiences or alter my way of thinking", I'm sure that might both confuse people and give them further cause to disregard my words. Just as many are raised and have their religious or non-religious beliefs pounded into their head until they are open to the notion of nothing else, I raised myself to be open to a great many things. I attempt to see things that people don't want to see, and I allow myself to think things that people may not want to know. I certainly wish I didn't know or think some of those things myself, but the fact that it could occur means it must occur. If not here, then in another variation of the same, however this invariably leads us into the discussion of parallel dimensions, infinite possibilities and the theory of the Multiverse itself, which I really don't feel like I want to discuss at this point because it can be so hard to get my points across without people misunderstanding or simply refusing to accept the possibility of.

If I were holding onto the leash of a dog that is pulling fairly hard, I can feel in the back of my mind the urge to just let go, and even though I do not it doesn't mean that urge didn't happen at all. It also means I'm aware of the other Me's who DID let go, and the plethora of consequences that could have resulted. Therefore, I can simultaneously see the various situations and choices I make and the very prospect of seeing them all makes me hesitate in my own actions. It's also bloody annoying and I wish to gods that I could shut it off from time to time. It is also especially annoying when I step into a situation that is potentially unique in that I've not done it before (although that doesn't mean I haven't, merely that I can't remember doing it before) and am suddenly struck by the overwhelming feeling that I HAVE done it before.. but am incapable of knowing when or why it feels like even the very people around me were there last time.

For instance, last night Jack in the Box had a special Free 2 Tacos event after 2 PM. While waiting in line and looking at the out of service machine and the little girl clinging to her father, and the crowd itself, I couldn't shake the sensation that I'd seen this exact scene before... the people, the situation, everything. That should, if we perceive events the way most would have you believe, be impossible and is merely a combination of multiple recollections jumbled together in an inefficient memory... much like dreams in some way. However, that excludes the possibility that it has, in fact, actually happened before or is in fact happened at that very moment, to one or more Me's that exist with the plethora of events that happen to us daily.

...I think I've gone beyond the scope of this thread and am now going to shut up, because this is starting to feel very uncomfortable.

I don't really feel like going into a long-winded, typical Hiroshi Post (tm) styled post

Gods damn it.[/spoiler]

[Silver Skree]

I don't really feel like going into a long-winded, typical Hiroshi Post (tm) styled post

[spoiler=guess what]<!> YOU FAIL IT <!>[/spoiler]

[igo]

http://www.cracked.com/article_18817_5-reasons-future-will-be-ruled-by-b.s..html

An interesting read, goes on to a page two at the bottom.

[Hiroshi Mishima]

I went to that article over 2 hours ago.. and I'm STILL on the fucking site!

..however, I would like to present a few things that the article brought to mind. These are snippets from Douglas Adam's The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy:

*This planet has — or rather had — a problem, which was this: most of the people living on it were unhappy for pretty much all of the time. Many solutions were suggested for this problem, but most of these were largely concerned with the movement of small green pieces of paper, which was odd because on the whole it wasn't the small green pieces of paper that were unhappy.

*Frogstar B was thrown into poverty through an event termed the Shoe Event Horizon. Many years ago, Frogstar World B was "a thriving, happy planet--people, cities, shops, a normal world." However, there were slightly too many shoe shops on the high streets of the planet, and the number of shoe shops was steadily increasing. The more shoe shops there were, the more the shops had to make, and the more they had to make, the worse and more unwearable the shoes became. And the worse and more unwearable the shoes became, the more the people had to buy, and the more money the shops made until it became economically impossible to build anything other than shoe shops. The result was collapse, ruin, and famine. Most of the population died out, but a select few with the right kind of genetic instability mutated into birds and cursed the ground.

Those are just either quotes or summaries, mind you, but what I'm trying to say is that if Humanity as a whole did have to resort to a complex schematic of bullshit in order to survive, the issue being ignore is that desperately clinging to "the old ways" is the surest way to never evolve past what Humanity is today. Developing things, no matter how useful or useless, for the sole purpose of making a quick dollar (or a quick billion dollars, as the IPhone4 seems to demonstrate) is not going to advance society, technology, or better mankind. If anything, Humanity might find itself devolving into some bizarre new niche to find a way out of the bullshit.. or more likely just destroying itself.

[Crashtour99]

[spoiler]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6G1rq5LdA4[/spoiler]

I found this guy's youtube channel not too long ago, and damn, the stuff he says makes so much sense.  He talks about a pretty wide variety of subjects, and does so quite eloquently.  I suggest subscribing and listening to what he has to say.   :wink:

The Sunset of the State

[-DC-]

This topic just showed up in IRC, and I saw that post above by Hiroshi.

I just gotta say that this analogy in the second to last paragraph doesn't even apply in the real world, because things in the real world don't work that way and never will. I sure see a lot of these apples to oranges analogies (more like apples to atom bombs, or something equally ludicrous), so heres some thoughts from me about the real world and the way things work. I might go off topic a bit, but it's all related, and it's really only the tip of the iceberg, so to speak.

[spoiler=real life stuff here]As far as the last paragraph is concerned about the so called old ways and advancement, that's funny, because if it wasn't for those old ways, humanity wouldn't have advanced and gotten us TVs, fridges, Radios, computers, cars, the assembly line, and literally thousands of things invented because of those so called old ways. Instead, humanity would be too busy being ass kissers to those that fancy themselves gods and/or kings, like before those so called old ways came to exist because of the creation of a nation based on them.

I really hate capitalist rants that all stem from either a guy being jealous of another's money or a guy being told what to believe by another guy jealous of another's money, just trying to cause some kind of class warfare junk. If you've lived in the real world long enough, you know how it really works. We became a great nation because of capitalism, and then we became a shit nation because of jealous egotists going into government simply to control those people they were jealous of, starting way waaaay back before any of our parents were even conceived... this thing has been going on for a hundred years.

Thing is, there are bad rich people... people that think they're better than everyone, and there was just such a discussion in the IRC today. The amount of money you get doesn't determine what kind of person you are, it's what you do with it, and there's far far more good rich people than bad. The bad ones just get all the attention, then it's blown up into a jealous class warfare issue, mostly by people that don't have only because they didn't try hard enough and seem to think everything should fall into their laps.

I'm not rich, not even middle class, but I'm where I am for the same reason almost everyone is: you end up where you are mostly based on your own lifestyle choices and your attitude towards life, and motivation to get ahead and work. I know a hell of a lot of younger people can't or won't accept that answer, but it's a fact of life.

Leading back into that capitalism thing and the old ways, the system works when a bunch of jealous pricks that want power aren't trying to control the system to get their little power trips and rack up their own easy money through the fees ad taxes, voting themselves raises for fraking things up more and more.

The reason things aren't working is only because those types were allowed to get those positions. And who gave them to 'em? Who voted for those empty promises of free things just cause it sounded good, despite the real fact that there is no free money, everything costs someone something because credit for doing something doesn't just come from nowhere... cause they barely look past the walls of their own room, or maybe even past their own computer screen, living their own fantasy world, making judgements about real world things they have zero knowledge or experience involved in, as they've never had to deal with said things, or maybe had one incident involved and based their entire judgment on one incident.

But yeah, no system can work right if you have people intentionally fraking up up for a little more money and power.

As for giant corporations, well, who gave them the money to get that big, once again? They sure didn't force anyone to buy their stuff, cause they can't, you have to do it by choice.

But anyway, the point is to quit being jealous of rich people, thinking the world should just drop your secure lifestyle into your lap, and believing every fantasy land idea you hear because it sounds good (cause in reality, in practice, most of those same ideas have already been proven failures throughout history... go learn about it).  You are where you are because, most of the time, your lifestyle choices, your attitude towards things, what you're comfortable doing, how lazy or active you are and willing to work hard for things, and what you chose to do is why you are where you are.

I only bring that up because that's what so many of these arguments truly boil down to... someone jealous of someone else and want the easy way out. You wouldn't believe how many times a guy can see this same junk in 6 years and see what kind of people spouting are really like. I've lived next to many of them.

Oh, and... in the real world, humanity will keep advancing only so long as there's motivation to come up with the next advancements, a motivation to do the work necessary to get the materials needed to create them, and so long as man has the freedom to do what they want... and sorry, but freedom doesn't come from being controlled by someone else that wants you and everyone else to be like them, because said person think they know better than everyone else. That's nothing more than being the very same egotistical elitist prick said person usually tries to make out those that have what they don't.


I'll tell ya all, though.. life, time, and experience really changes your perspective on how the world really works and what's actually wrong with things. Just learn from it and keep going, and if you want more, it's up to you to make yourself more than what you are now. No matter who promises to drop free things in your lap and make your life easy, that will always end quick if it ever happens, and you have to ask yourself, do you really think they care about giving you an easy life if they don't have it easier than you? No... they don't. Promises like that are utter bullcrap, so don't buy into them.. wise up.

One last little tidbit, just since it came to mind... about those people usually spouting these promises of a more utopian society and anti-capitalist, anti-american style of things, which usually start with some celebrity or idolized person... gee, you know, those people sure are pretty rich, aren't they. How did they get so rich, now..? Capitalism.  And why do they all seem to live over here in the very country they seem to hate so much, and why do they bash the very system that made them their millions? Well, cause then the 'sheeple' that don't think things through, looking for a utopia where they get everything free, will idolize those people more, giving them more power, and they get richer off those people buying their stuff, donating money to them, supporting them and their 'cause'... which coincidentally puts them in control over what you can and can't do... and the 'sheeple' that buy into this bullshit get nothing whatsoever. They lose, and its all done by taking advantage of their desire for a world where they don't have to work to get rich.



I apologize for the insanely long post, but it's most likely the only one I'll make in a long time pertaining to real life. I could literally go on for hours and hours with what I've experienced and seen a decade or more worth, but this is about all I'll say, cause I really hate the time taken typing it... it's usually wasted when it's not towards someone with objective thought, willing to wait and learn for themself, before making judgements about things they've never actually experienced first hand, or cared about on a level that makes them actually consider things, whether it's to their liking or their advantage or not. Sometimes there's just things you don't like, and that's life. What matters is how you deal with it... and taking the thought process of "everything should be the way I want it, whatever the cost to others," sure isn't it.

Whether you see my post as a cynical buzzkill or not... it doesn't really matter. Sorry, but that's life... and everyone finds that out sooner or later. With what I've been through, I used to think things were pretty damn unfair and hated rich people, blaming 'the system' for my problems... till I actually looked at myself and why I am where I am. What a load of horse shit I believed, and basically waiting for things to drop into my lap put me further in the shit hole than if I just accepted things, moved on, and made something of myself... though I'm glad I got out of that dumbass thought process, wised up, and took care of myself for the last 7 years or so, otherwise I'd still be living paycheck to paycheck, gaining pretty much nothing out of life, and still believing a bunch of bullcrap keeping me there.[/spoiler]

[Crashtour99]

I gotta say DC, I'm havin a little trouble following who/what you're responding to...   Any chance you could clarify?

[Hiroshi Mishima]

I think he was ranting about a number of things, but not unlike my own posts, it felt as though his train of thought was going from place to place and not staying on a single subject. Which like my own posts can make them rather difficult to follow at times.

That said, I'll address two things:

1) [spoiler]Going out and seeing how the world works today is not the same thing as understanding how it has always worked, nor will it be a true guide to how civilization will advance or become in the next several hundred years. Why do I say this? Because what we are today is nothing compared to what we were 1000 years ago, and likewise nothing like what we were 1000 years before that. To claim that "I have been out there and experienced the world we live in, therefore I know what it really is and why nothing will change" is like saying "Nothing will ever be able to replace the digital watch because it allows me to know what time it is no matter where I am."

How is this relevant? I will explain. If I asked you what time it was would: A) Look outside and see where the sun is? B) Look at your wrist watch? C) Check the corner of your monitor? or D) Consult your phone which you are likely already looking at when asked?

In today's society, you would likely answer with D. And when not using your phone to tell the time, you could be browsing a message board, or even watching TV on it. It's been just a few hundred years since pocket watches, slightly more portable than an actual clock, began to be used through out the more civilized parts of the world. But in that same amount of time we've seen civilizations collapse and industries fall apart, and by the time things are rebuilt from the ashes the way the world works has changed again. Even if it's only a small change each time, it's slowly pushing us in different directions or weeding out schools of thought and practice that just couldn't make it. Slavery, women's rights, even child labour has changed. Are you seriously expecting us to believe that what society is today and how things work with communism and such are going to be the same (or even exist) in another thousand years from now? Hell, possibly not even THAT long. All that does is make you sound like the kind of people who advocate NO change and will be the ones kicking and screaming as they're dragged into the next century.[/spoiler]

TL;DR: Claiming that you've "been out there" and that it somehow puts you in a better spot to say things than everyone else who has also "been out there" makes you sound like some sort of elitest jerk.

2) I've always had a strong instinctive urge to bitchslap (and I hate that word) people who use the term "sheeple" because much like my friend Chuck (no, not the TV show) has said in the past, I've never heard someone use it who hasn't been one in the past (or worse, is still one whether they know it or not).

EDIT: I may have misunderstood part of what you said during my rant in 1) up there, and if so, I apologize. But the Too Long Didn't Read bit still kind of applies, as that's how you're making yourself sound.

[Crashtour99]

A video that I think everyone should watch.
Contents include:
The nature of violent behavior and it's propagation within culture.
The inherent instability and infeasibility of the current economic system.
The foundational problems within a monetary system.
Ideas about how we as a species can live without these types of things...

Also, please refrain from commenting on the video if you haven't watched it.

ZEITGEIST: MOVING FORWARD | OFFICIAL RELEASE | 2011

[Digital_Mantra]

Been part of the Zeitgeist Movement (in Vancouver) for 2 years now.
Saw Moving Forward the second it hit tubes. The delay was killing me.

I enjoyed the execution of this one, it carried a lot from Addendum but made it more understandable to the masses. Which is the point innit?
Excellent Documentary. Watch it, then send to 10 friends.
It adds up.

Watch addendum too if you'd like to delve deeper into modern money mechanics and more monetary system information.
But watch Moving Forward.
Right Now.

Sorry for the pagebreak Crashtour, here, fresh page:

A video that I think everyone should watch.
Contents include:
The nature of violent behavior and it's propagation within culture.
The inherent instability and infeasibility of the current economic system.
The foundational problems within a monetary system.
Ideas about how we as a species can live without these types of things...

Also, please refrain from commenting on the video if you haven't watched it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z9WVZddH9w#ws

[squishy_ichigo]

I feel insanely bad that I didn't watch this when you made the post a few days ago. :<

This is one of several big things that I contemplated during my time as igo. Many of the subjects are not new to me, but the video did surprise a few times.

This video sums up everything in a comprehensive way that people can understand it, even without prior knowledge in these concepts. It is very professional, and in this department, that helps a lot with spreading the cause.

I am at a loss for words to explain how happy this video makes me.  I want everyone to watch this.
Everyone needs to watch this. No exceptions. It should be looped all day every day on every channel until something is done! :D

[Crashtour99]

@ Dman:  No worries man, it's all good.   :^_^:

@ Squishy:  I'm not really sure if the solution they propose in the video is actually viable or not, but at least proposing something like that is a step in a non-self destructive direction.  All that aside, I think one of the best points of it, is how it shines an amazingly bright light onto many of the systemic problems with the world today.

I figure share it where you can with whoever will listen.  You can't make people watch it, but at least we can provide it to those who are ready.

[-DC-]

To Hiroshi, I'm not sure if you even read or comprehended that post... but I see the apology in case you didn't. My train of thought was focused on an end and I was trying to encompass a portion of the great many of things related for further understanding. It would take way too long to fully explain everything.

Anyway...

[spoiler=blah]First up, I didn't say things will never change. I said the analogy in your second to last paragraph isn't how the world works and will never work that way because real life doesn't work that way. In the real world, it takes money to get things and start things, and do anything, because money is the physical representation of you having spent time earning credit for doing something. And in the real world, there will always be commerce, something to trade for your money. They won't keep making only the same stuff because people are smart enough to determine if they're being ripped off, or if something is not worth the time they spent earning money for it. That's what it all comes down to.

Then you see most people out there that baww about rich people don't actually want to work in the first place, or don't actually try to get anywhere.

But today, with all the regulation and taxes and bullcrap there is causing the separation of the classes and keeping people from being able to innovate and create that advancement of technology, or whatever, that makes it pretty hard to have a new idea and make something from it if you can't afford to patent or manufacture it in the first place.

I was once in a group about to start a computer business... except all the taxes and money it took just to start that was way out of range. It never got off the ground, only a pipe dream. I actually tried to start a business twice before, but couldn't get anywhere.

Second to your first thing, claiming to know about stuff you haven't actually experienced first hand makes you an elitist jerk, not claiming to know about things you actually have experienced and see others talk about out their ass.

Oh, and by the way... I never 'claimed' to have been out there, I said I have been out there. And I've been out there a hell of a lot longer than most here, as well. I can tell when someone hasn't actually been out there more than an experienced person has... or that working in a dead end job a few years to gain their anti corporate attitude and 'knowledge' about the real world, and then thinks that magically grants them the same time and experience as someone that's been out there in a multitude of jobs over more than a decade.

For example, I had seen a debate before on guns and some guy shooting another guy that jumped him, and these morality nuts were all going "oh, he didn't have to shoot the guy"... but having experienced being at the end of a barrel, I know exactly what goes through your mind in said situation, and the guy acted on instinct to protect himself. Just one small example of what experience actually is.

If you can't stomach the fact that experience > wisdom > knowledge > 'thinking you know about it', well tough shit there... welcome to reality. Once again, people should go experience things before making up philosophical bullcrap that does nothing more than try to turn something into something else, which to someone that actually knows what IS what, just makes you look ridiculous. Most of it, so far as I've seen, people use to justify why they don't have to do something they don't like.


As for the second part, I rarely use the word sheeple unless I want to sarcastically imply how dumb a group of people are. It's faster than saying "mindless morons that don't know how to think further ahead than the walls of their own home and their own financial security."


But yeah... I won't bother with a TL;DR, cause if you can't spend the few minutes to read the post, then you shouldn't bother responding when you don't have the full context of the material. But I will state once again that there's nothing elitist about stating flat out that having more experience in something makes you more knowledgeable in the subject... because it's the cold hard truth. Go ask your parents and your grandparents... or, try to tell them that you know more about the things they actually did and see how far that flies with them.



There are 2 last little tidbits about things... I can tell you that people will hardly do something if it isn't worth their time to do it. That's why there IS a monetary system. So you can decide for yourself what is worth your time buy where you decide to place your credits for time worked (money). Not so someone else gets to decide for you. You have full freedom of choice to decide if something is worth paying for. If you decide to give your money to something you hate the price of, then you can only blame yourself for showing that you think it's worth enough to you to have decided to buy it.

As for choice, well, that's where competition is supposed to come in... but it's kinda hard to have competition when people can't afford to start or are too afraid of copyright lawsuits killing them.

Second thing is a phrase I stated the other day that's the absolute fact... pointing right at any kind of utopia theory, including the star trek fantasy utopia... though that utopia is far more credible because of an imaginary device called the replicator... cause it pretty much eliminates all the necessary business that would have to occur without it to have people making all the stuff the replicator can just make appear out of thin air.

Anyway, that quote was simply put: there is no utopia or ideal society.. so long as there's freedom for people to do what they wish and freedom of thought and opinions, that would never work. And the only way to change that is to enforce an ideology and lock down freedom of thought / speech / opinions, because a difference in those things could cause a movement against the society, and that would be a threat to the utopia. And then you have to ask who would be in charge of that perfect utopia.[/spoiler]

Anyway, that's all, once again. I might look at those vids if I have time.

[Digital_Mantra]

In light of the third installment of Zeitgeist being posted here, I'd like to share the first two just in case people haven't seen them yet.

Zeitgeist
[spoiler]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lio3n66bwOo[/spoiler]

Zeitgeist: Addendum
[spoiler]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EewGMBOB4Gg[/spoiler]


All that aside, I've been watching TROM lately (The Reality Of Me). It's the largest documentary ever created (around 12 hours),
spanning literally everything in a series of segmented sections.
Their website has a torrent download for it. It's quite informative though I am bothered by the text to speech voice in areas.
http://www.tromsite.com/